20b In A Glc
07-20-2003, 12:25 PM
#121
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,284
Nope. I did however get to mess with Mr Rotoscoot's supercharged FB and his brand new '88 NA FC. We pulled the engine-tranny-SC combo from one FB to go into another FB. We also got a previously flooded and therefore non running automatic FC to run almost perfectly. It has a slight vacuum leak under the UIM; probably an old cracked hose or something, which I guess is pretty common. Man, all that car needed was a quick de-flooding by blocking the fuel lines (carefully with a vice grip) and it fired right up.
This week I'll get to the GLC and I might even put the 20B in it, but I doubt it. I still need to cut the firewall and fit the radiator first. I didn't even build the 13B mockup yet.
This week I'll get to the GLC and I might even put the 20B in it, but I doubt it. I still need to cut the firewall and fit the radiator first. I didn't even build the 13B mockup yet.
07-20-2003, 09:03 PM
#122
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,284
Just an update on what I've spent, and still need to spend, on the this project.
Car - $0 (was supposed to be $500, but we worked out a better deal)
20B - $600 + 190 SH = $790.00
front eccentric seal - $3.72
pilot bearing - $9.37
pilot seal - $2.41
FC waterpump and fan- $65 on eBay
Still need to spend:
fuel pump - around $65?
carb - $250-$300
manifold mod - ?
driveshaft shortened - $100
light steel flywheel 215/225mm - $260
exhaust - $44 hehe
Total will be $1524.50 (assuming carb is $250).
It helps to already have parts laying around.
Car - $0 (was supposed to be $500, but we worked out a better deal)
20B - $600 + 190 SH = $790.00
front eccentric seal - $3.72
pilot bearing - $9.37
pilot seal - $2.41
FC waterpump and fan- $65 on eBay
Still need to spend:
fuel pump - around $65?
carb - $250-$300
manifold mod - ?
driveshaft shortened - $100
light steel flywheel 215/225mm - $260
exhaust - $44 hehe
Total will be $1524.50 (assuming carb is $250).
It helps to already have parts laying around.
07-21-2003, 12:34 AM
#124
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,284
I still may be able to whittle the price list down a bit more. I'm not sure yet.
I spoke with DMRH a little and apreciate his thoughts on the subject of an RX-323 (GLC=goes like crazy). A lot of what he had to say makes perfect sence. Basically, a small light car with a large heavy engine in front can upset the weight distribution and so-forth. Although a 13B in a GLC would rip like nobody's bussiness, I have a few interesting observations about my (soon to be) unique setup here.
There's apearantly more than one 20B powered 323 down under, so I won't be the first (should have known; those Aussies and their rotaries I tell yah). The first stateside maybe, but definetly not the first. Oh wait, it'll be the first 20B powered GLC. Ah, there I go.
He said there's one that can do 9s in the 400M. I guess that's like an 1/8 or 1/4 mile track. Anyway, it has a ford 9" diff that helps to offset the weight. Also, he said the extra weight up front will make it a pig to steer quickly, so road racing is out. I figured as much already though, and I'm thinking it may affect gymkhana. I wasn't really planning on road racing though due to the wear incured on like almost every part of the car. Gymkhana is actually my main motivation, although Jerk Racer said even a stock 12A in a 1st gen does really well, so maybe I'm off my rocker here. It depends a lot on driver skill; moreso than engine power. D'oh! I'm still going to try gymkhana, at least once. I owe it to myself. Which leaves drag racing -which I planned on doing anyway. I'm not even sure what the car would be able to do, time-wise. I'll need LSD and maybe a good clutch eventually. SPRT says a clutch that can be slipped is actually better for the rest of the drivetrain; so it won't kill it so quickly. I've got a 215mm set that needs a home. I may go to a 225mm setup eventually, but it's only 10mm more. Well, whatever I do, I've got to keep the build really cheap so it'll be done by sevenstock.
I've gone over which vehicle of mine would be best for the 20B at least a hundred times. I've got a certain critera that I follow. Without delving into it too much, it has to be a car that I already have (I won't go out looking for a car just to put the 20B in it). It has to be able to handle the power (like 200-250HP NA). It has to absorb the extra length with out screwing up the interior too much, or at all. It has to handle the weight of maybe around 75 more pounds than a 13B (still not sure exactly how much more). It has to be cool when it's finished (I'm not looking for fame, but it has to put a smile on my face whenever I drive it). It can't impact the amont of drivable vehicles too much during the build, which means my REPU would be a bad candidate because it's currenly my only transportation. The Cosmo is close, but not there yet, and I don't really want to cut it up because it's in such great shape, and rare/collectible (as is the REPU). The MG needs a few things (engine, mainly), so it's kind of far off still. The GLC needs not only an engine, but a lots of other stuff related to the specifics of a rotary because I got this car in unfinished form. At least the brakes and other driveability type stuff is actually ready to go, unlike the MG.
Suffice it to say, the GLC is the best candidate so far. I've mentioned before that the GLC 20B project sort of took me by suprise. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this thread, but I really didn't expect this turn of events.
Then there was the question of weight and power of a 20B and the GLC's frame. If I'm right, the GLC was put together from the same parts bins as the RX-3. There are lots of similar parts here and there. Even the RX-3 front crossmember and motor mount can be used. So a 13B can fit easily. So what? What about the weight? That was a tough one. Mike likes the thought of engine weight going back instead of forward. Since the front of the engine will be fairly light with an aluminum waterpump and smallish alternator with electric fan and a lighter-than-REPU-radiator (tall '83-'85 FB style, if I can get it to fit), that front end should be pretty good. The battery will need to come out for sure. It'll shave a few more LBS off the front of the car.
Mike, you mentioned your FC actually got lighter with a 20B in it? I'm sure my car will get heavier than stock with a 20B conversion, but hopefully it won't destroy the handling too much.
Hmm, I don't have a 13B mockup installed yet, but the way the engine is located between the strut towers, moving the extra 160mm rearward will either place the middle of the engine directly over the wheel spindles, or a little behind them. My REPU and Cosmo both have the intermediate plates forward of the spindles.
In case you can't tell, I'm still trying to talk myself into putting my 20B in the GLC. I just hope I'm not glossing over the bad aspects of such a swap. I'm kinda curious if anyone has actually read this far yet. I'd like to get some constructive critisism. I'm just rambling now and I'll feel like an idiot tomorrow, but I've got all these thoughts floating around that need to get out. A public forum such as this is a great place. See there, I'm still doing it. Please give me your thoughts if you care to. Thanks.
Ok, finally, the last thingamabob for tonight. Here goes.
The front of the GLC will consist of the following: (heh, it's my light-list)
bare block 20B with...
FC waterpump and pullies (they're both a lot lighter than JC Cosmo parts, let me tell you)
semi-lightweight alternator (not sure how many amps, but it's a Hitachi and similar in weight to my '84 55amp alt)
cheap but effective 16" fan that's not too heavy
'83-'85 FB radiator that's lighter than my REPU radiator
1st gen oil cooler (light? heavy? I dunno)
13B oil pan and aluminum baffle plate (the weight savings over the stocker is neglegible, but the pickup tube is shorter)
Racing Beat light steel flywheel (the aluminum is a little lighter, but I'd rather do steel for longevity, and it's cheaper)
FC NA starter (lightest smallest available to fit an old style ribcase tranny)
stock LIM which is actually really light. Box plenum is simply sheet metal.
Holley carb which is lighter than a stock Nikki or Hitachi carb.
modded FB dizzy (slightly heavier than the CAS, but I won't need an ECU hehe)
FB front cover (same weight or lighter since it doesn't have the steel oil return tube)
only three Diamond or equivilant coils instead six
removed scizzor jack and tire iron from its home opposite the battery
the battery will get moved eventually for better handling, but for now, it;ll have to stay up front
Sorry if that's a little hard to read. I wasn't sure how to insert bullets or whatever they are.
I spoke with DMRH a little and apreciate his thoughts on the subject of an RX-323 (GLC=goes like crazy). A lot of what he had to say makes perfect sence. Basically, a small light car with a large heavy engine in front can upset the weight distribution and so-forth. Although a 13B in a GLC would rip like nobody's bussiness, I have a few interesting observations about my (soon to be) unique setup here.
There's apearantly more than one 20B powered 323 down under, so I won't be the first (should have known; those Aussies and their rotaries I tell yah). The first stateside maybe, but definetly not the first. Oh wait, it'll be the first 20B powered GLC. Ah, there I go.
He said there's one that can do 9s in the 400M. I guess that's like an 1/8 or 1/4 mile track. Anyway, it has a ford 9" diff that helps to offset the weight. Also, he said the extra weight up front will make it a pig to steer quickly, so road racing is out. I figured as much already though, and I'm thinking it may affect gymkhana. I wasn't really planning on road racing though due to the wear incured on like almost every part of the car. Gymkhana is actually my main motivation, although Jerk Racer said even a stock 12A in a 1st gen does really well, so maybe I'm off my rocker here. It depends a lot on driver skill; moreso than engine power. D'oh! I'm still going to try gymkhana, at least once. I owe it to myself. Which leaves drag racing -which I planned on doing anyway. I'm not even sure what the car would be able to do, time-wise. I'll need LSD and maybe a good clutch eventually. SPRT says a clutch that can be slipped is actually better for the rest of the drivetrain; so it won't kill it so quickly. I've got a 215mm set that needs a home. I may go to a 225mm setup eventually, but it's only 10mm more. Well, whatever I do, I've got to keep the build really cheap so it'll be done by sevenstock.
I've gone over which vehicle of mine would be best for the 20B at least a hundred times. I've got a certain critera that I follow. Without delving into it too much, it has to be a car that I already have (I won't go out looking for a car just to put the 20B in it). It has to be able to handle the power (like 200-250HP NA). It has to absorb the extra length with out screwing up the interior too much, or at all. It has to handle the weight of maybe around 75 more pounds than a 13B (still not sure exactly how much more). It has to be cool when it's finished (I'm not looking for fame, but it has to put a smile on my face whenever I drive it). It can't impact the amont of drivable vehicles too much during the build, which means my REPU would be a bad candidate because it's currenly my only transportation. The Cosmo is close, but not there yet, and I don't really want to cut it up because it's in such great shape, and rare/collectible (as is the REPU). The MG needs a few things (engine, mainly), so it's kind of far off still. The GLC needs not only an engine, but a lots of other stuff related to the specifics of a rotary because I got this car in unfinished form. At least the brakes and other driveability type stuff is actually ready to go, unlike the MG.
Suffice it to say, the GLC is the best candidate so far. I've mentioned before that the GLC 20B project sort of took me by suprise. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this thread, but I really didn't expect this turn of events.
Then there was the question of weight and power of a 20B and the GLC's frame. If I'm right, the GLC was put together from the same parts bins as the RX-3. There are lots of similar parts here and there. Even the RX-3 front crossmember and motor mount can be used. So a 13B can fit easily. So what? What about the weight? That was a tough one. Mike likes the thought of engine weight going back instead of forward. Since the front of the engine will be fairly light with an aluminum waterpump and smallish alternator with electric fan and a lighter-than-REPU-radiator (tall '83-'85 FB style, if I can get it to fit), that front end should be pretty good. The battery will need to come out for sure. It'll shave a few more LBS off the front of the car.
Mike, you mentioned your FC actually got lighter with a 20B in it? I'm sure my car will get heavier than stock with a 20B conversion, but hopefully it won't destroy the handling too much.
Hmm, I don't have a 13B mockup installed yet, but the way the engine is located between the strut towers, moving the extra 160mm rearward will either place the middle of the engine directly over the wheel spindles, or a little behind them. My REPU and Cosmo both have the intermediate plates forward of the spindles.
In case you can't tell, I'm still trying to talk myself into putting my 20B in the GLC. I just hope I'm not glossing over the bad aspects of such a swap. I'm kinda curious if anyone has actually read this far yet. I'd like to get some constructive critisism. I'm just rambling now and I'll feel like an idiot tomorrow, but I've got all these thoughts floating around that need to get out. A public forum such as this is a great place. See there, I'm still doing it. Please give me your thoughts if you care to. Thanks.
Ok, finally, the last thingamabob for tonight. Here goes.
The front of the GLC will consist of the following: (heh, it's my light-list)
bare block 20B with...
FC waterpump and pullies (they're both a lot lighter than JC Cosmo parts, let me tell you)
semi-lightweight alternator (not sure how many amps, but it's a Hitachi and similar in weight to my '84 55amp alt)
cheap but effective 16" fan that's not too heavy
'83-'85 FB radiator that's lighter than my REPU radiator
1st gen oil cooler (light? heavy? I dunno)
13B oil pan and aluminum baffle plate (the weight savings over the stocker is neglegible, but the pickup tube is shorter)
Racing Beat light steel flywheel (the aluminum is a little lighter, but I'd rather do steel for longevity, and it's cheaper)
FC NA starter (lightest smallest available to fit an old style ribcase tranny)
stock LIM which is actually really light. Box plenum is simply sheet metal.
Holley carb which is lighter than a stock Nikki or Hitachi carb.
modded FB dizzy (slightly heavier than the CAS, but I won't need an ECU hehe)
FB front cover (same weight or lighter since it doesn't have the steel oil return tube)
only three Diamond or equivilant coils instead six
removed scizzor jack and tire iron from its home opposite the battery
the battery will get moved eventually for better handling, but for now, it;ll have to stay up front
Sorry if that's a little hard to read. I wasn't sure how to insert bullets or whatever they are.
07-21-2003, 12:53 AM
#125
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,284
I just looked at some older pics of the GLC's engine bay and it looks like the middle of the engine is way forward of the strut towers. That still doesn't mean the spindles are too far behind the middle of the engine, but I think a 20B with the extra length rearward will actually be a good thing.
Ok, now I've got to finish as much as I can regarding general rotary installation stuff before I need to make my final 13B vs 20B decision.
Ok, now I've got to finish as much as I can regarding general rotary installation stuff before I need to make my final 13B vs 20B decision.
07-21-2003, 02:59 AM
#129
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,284
That's an older picture. The UIM is already gone; it went to a happy home. It was hard to give it up.
Man, that engine sure is far forward in the pic, isn't it? Geez, having let's say like 75 extra LBS added to the center of the engine bay but further back, as in near the firewall and under it, with the battery moved to the back as well, I'd say I've got a good chance at pretty good drivability and faily decent handling. That much weight as rearward as it's going to be is like having a passenger with really fat legs. lol But anyway, after thinking about it, it seems like it won't be all that bad weight-wise afterall.
Well, thanks to you guys, I've come closer to letting the 20B win the debate as to which engine will go in the GLC.
Man, that engine sure is far forward in the pic, isn't it? Geez, having let's say like 75 extra LBS added to the center of the engine bay but further back, as in near the firewall and under it, with the battery moved to the back as well, I'd say I've got a good chance at pretty good drivability and faily decent handling. That much weight as rearward as it's going to be is like having a passenger with really fat legs. lol But anyway, after thinking about it, it seems like it won't be all that bad weight-wise afterall.
Well, thanks to you guys, I've come closer to letting the 20B win the debate as to which engine will go in the GLC.