I Hate Insurance Yet Again!
09-13-2003, 09:27 AM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NJ
Posts: 4,981
Originally Posted by rx794' date='Sep 13 2003, 01:06 AM
Vosko, all you have to do is have them start working on the car, and have the bodyshop do an adjustment for whatever else you need. This is done all the time, it's an adjustment to the original estimate, ask the bodyshop about it, they'll explain it better than me.
09-16-2003, 07:53 PM
#23
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: My BIG ol TURBO-DIESEL
Posts: 5,181
Give this list to your shop....
1. Special license plate frame
2. R&I Air Bag sensor
3. R&I air intake componets
4. R&I batter
5. R&I emblems/nameplates
6. Retape emblems/nameplates
7. R&I driving lights
8. Aim Lamps
9. Remove moulding
10. Remove stripetape/decals
11. R&I valance
12. R&I energy absorber
13. R&I license bracket
14. Drill to install
15. R&I accessory items
16. Remove moulding
17. R&I spoiler/flares
18. R&I body sheet metal
19. R&I bolted on parts
20. Adjust/bleed brakes
21. Brake fluid
22. R&I drive train
23. Setup and measure unibody
24. Align unibody
25. Align strut towers
26. R&I wiring
27. Remove fuel from tank and store
28. R&I fuel tank
29. Replace fuel
30. R&I wheel
31. Remove special wheel lock
32. Metal finish
33. R&I exhaust
34. Wheel alignment
35. Setup/measure perimeter frame
36. R&I header panel
37. Straighten sway
38. Straighten twist
39. Straighten rail
40. Additional setup
41. Straighten diamond
42. Straighten X-member
43. R&I accessory items
44. Adjust belts
45. Coolant
46. Adjust belts
1. Special license plate frame
2. R&I Air Bag sensor
3. R&I air intake componets
4. R&I batter
5. R&I emblems/nameplates
6. Retape emblems/nameplates
7. R&I driving lights
8. Aim Lamps
9. Remove moulding
10. Remove stripetape/decals
11. R&I valance
12. R&I energy absorber
13. R&I license bracket
14. Drill to install
15. R&I accessory items
16. Remove moulding
17. R&I spoiler/flares
18. R&I body sheet metal
19. R&I bolted on parts
20. Adjust/bleed brakes
21. Brake fluid
22. R&I drive train
23. Setup and measure unibody
24. Align unibody
25. Align strut towers
26. R&I wiring
27. Remove fuel from tank and store
28. R&I fuel tank
29. Replace fuel
30. R&I wheel
31. Remove special wheel lock
32. Metal finish
33. R&I exhaust
34. Wheel alignment
35. Setup/measure perimeter frame
36. R&I header panel
37. Straighten sway
38. Straighten twist
39. Straighten rail
40. Additional setup
41. Straighten diamond
42. Straighten X-member
43. R&I accessory items
44. Adjust belts
45. Coolant
46. Adjust belts
09-16-2003, 07:55 PM
#24
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: My BIG ol TURBO-DIESEL
Posts: 5,181
And more stuff to stiff the Insurance company with:
Not-Includeds: How Well Do You Know the P-Pages?
By Bob Isham
The first rule of estimating is: Always assume something was left off the estimate. Your job: Find and add missing procedures. It can be fun to "outfox the fox," and you might even make it a game to sharpen your skills. You need three basic tools: Mitchell's, Motor's, and ADP's P-Pages. Study them. (All great books of knowledge are worthless until read and studied.) Once you master the process, you can review an adjuster's sheet in minutes and list anywhere from 1-100 omitted items. For each estimate, use the P-Page book for the estimating system the adjuster used. A short list of commonly omitted items: l. Epoxy primer for rust-corrosion protection. Should be used whenever you expose bare metal. 2. Weld-thru primer (CCC allows labor and material; Mitchell/ADP include labor but no materials.) 3. Damage access. The books refer to "new undamaged panels"; how many cars are new and undamaged? 4. Pre-pulls before cutting sheet metal. 5. Hazardous waste removal fees, including recordkeeping costs. Charge tire disposal fees when repair requires buying new tires. 6. Bag the car for overspray. Normally we have to do this twice: for priming and again for painting. 7. Wax coating new inner parts (fenders/hoods/doors, rails, etc.). Look at the old parts; you'll normally see a wax coating on the back. The manual for the specific make/model of car will have diagrams showing exactly where to wax the parts. 8. Removal of undercoating before repair/replacement. BMWs and Mercedes require extensive additional labor; so do most other vehicles. 9. Sound pads in doors and on trunk floors. Charge material and labor separately. 10.4-wheel alignment. Most car makers recommend this after a collision. Collect and read factory manuals for makes/models you work on. 11. Tint color to match vehicle (charge twice when you have 2 colors). This isn't an "included" item. Add time for 2-tone jobs, per P-Pages. 12. Removal of stripes. Old stripes have to be removed prior to refinishing. A separate charge applies. 13. Remove trim and hardware. Replacement of a fender never includes such items as the radio antenna, mudflaps, and other trim. These should be separate charges. 14. Drill to install moldings, mirrors, radio antenna, etc. Clean up LKQ parts; additional time (double overhaul) of used parts. Remember, the old door has to be gutted to transfer the inner parts. 15. Panel burn and prep adjacent panels. A radiator support, when installed, will often burn the tips of the aprons. The welds have to be cleaned up and the areas treated. 16. Remove molding adhesive or emblem adhesive. This isn't included in the time to replace the part. 17. Cleaning and retaping moldings or nameplates isn't included if you re-use them. Most often it's more cost-effective to replace, but if you save them, charge for your time. 18.Color/sand and buff isn't included but nearly always needed. Formulas are available (often 30% of the paint time) to calculate time. l9. Urethane kits (for windshields, quarter glass, back glass) are extra costs you should list on estimates. 20. Removal of fenders to install a radiator support is rarely included. If both fenders are being replaced, it's not important; it is if you replace one side and repair the other. Make a separate charge to R&I a fender you're not replacing. 21. Repair and refinish "pinch clamp" marks left after a car is removed from the bench. Restoring preloss condition includes removing telltale signs a car was mounted on a bench. 22. Check and test, or replace seat belts. Refer to both the owner's manual and the manual for the make/model in question. I-CAR has a procedure; it shouldn't be free. 23. Charge storage on total-loss vehicles, including the cost of cleaning up oil spills. Charge for extra labor to dolly a car in and out of the shop or place the vehicle on a lift for adjusters to inspect. Charge inspection and administrative fees to prepare an estimate or supplement on a borderline total. 24. Replace one-time suspension fasteners when you remove suspension. Check with car manufacturer. 25. Charge to drain/store fuel. R&I the gas tank doesn't include draining and storing fuel. Seldom is the tank empty when it needs to be removed. 26. Mask off openings. When refinishing a radiator support, we need to mask the engine compartment. Likewise the door openings when we do a rocker or quarter panel. Mitchell explains this process well in its P-Pages. 27. When you sleeve a quarter, rocker, or pillar, charge for the labor to build the sleeve; it isn't included. 28. Removal of urethane-set glass (back glass, quarter glass, etc.) isn't normally included in time to replace the quarter panel. Check the provider's P-pages. 29. Panel bonding adhesive and expandable foam. More and more quarter panels have a foam adhesive sandwiched between the outer and inner panels. 30. Brake and other fluids when you bleed brakes, or perhaps replace a power steering pump. Maybe just replacing windshield washer fluids. Everyone remembers anti-freeze but we often add other fluids. Make a fair charge. 31. Charge for bumper repair kits, fiberglass materials, and plastic welding supplies. 32. Charge for clearcoat on inner surfaces. All paint manufacturers insist you clearcoat inner surfaces of two-stage paints. 33. Degrease and steam-clean the engine compartment before working in area. Check under the hood to see if this is required. 34. Butyl tape for tail lights of some makes and models, as well as for some bolted in quarter glass. 35. Disable air bag and remove computers if welding in area. I-CAR has procedures for this. 36. R&I stereo, speakers, amps when in the way or welding in area. 37. Misc. clips and fasteners either from your own inventory or bought from the dealer. 38. Remove chip guard and replace. Formulas are listed in P-Pages. 39. Remove stone protectors (plastic) found on most truck beds and replace them. Add time to remove adhesive; this isn't included in R&R. 40. Charge for AC "O" rings replaced. 41. Free up rusted or frozen bolts. 42. Replace underhood decals. 43. VIN stickers on doors or quarters. You need time to remove a decal (cut it out) and secure a new one. Put the old ones in the glove box. 44. Charge for flex additive on bumpers and other plastic parts. 45. Aim headlights. Some systems pick this up automatically; others require a separate entry. 46. Charge to remove tool boxes, bedliners, racks, and camper shells to repair truck beds, plus other accessories like grille guards, stainless kits. 47. Remove and replace foam tape on bedrails of trucks w/camper shells. 48. Clean up broken glass. Remove tar and grease. 49. Replace aftermarket wheel-opening and door edge-guard moldings; remove adhesive. 50. Replace paint protection packages such as the "polyglycoat" and other teflon-type sealers. Often this must be done 90 days after the repaint; ask your paint supplier's advice. This isn't a complete list of P-page items. You'll find many more when you study the manuals. The collision business has a reported national net profit pof less than 5%. This means you must do $100 of business to net $5. Always recall the advice of a now retired collision repair executive: "If you don't ask, you don't get." When you incur an expense that falls outside the realm of the P-Pages, find a way to get paid fairly. It's your business; you're free to "give away" any of these items. At our shop, we regularly charge fairly for all these items, and we regularly collect.
Parts & Equipment
Not-Includeds: How Well Do You Know the P-Pages?
By Bob Isham
The first rule of estimating is: Always assume something was left off the estimate. Your job: Find and add missing procedures. It can be fun to "outfox the fox," and you might even make it a game to sharpen your skills. You need three basic tools: Mitchell's, Motor's, and ADP's P-Pages. Study them. (All great books of knowledge are worthless until read and studied.) Once you master the process, you can review an adjuster's sheet in minutes and list anywhere from 1-100 omitted items. For each estimate, use the P-Page book for the estimating system the adjuster used. A short list of commonly omitted items: l. Epoxy primer for rust-corrosion protection. Should be used whenever you expose bare metal. 2. Weld-thru primer (CCC allows labor and material; Mitchell/ADP include labor but no materials.) 3. Damage access. The books refer to "new undamaged panels"; how many cars are new and undamaged? 4. Pre-pulls before cutting sheet metal. 5. Hazardous waste removal fees, including recordkeeping costs. Charge tire disposal fees when repair requires buying new tires. 6. Bag the car for overspray. Normally we have to do this twice: for priming and again for painting. 7. Wax coating new inner parts (fenders/hoods/doors, rails, etc.). Look at the old parts; you'll normally see a wax coating on the back. The manual for the specific make/model of car will have diagrams showing exactly where to wax the parts. 8. Removal of undercoating before repair/replacement. BMWs and Mercedes require extensive additional labor; so do most other vehicles. 9. Sound pads in doors and on trunk floors. Charge material and labor separately. 10.4-wheel alignment. Most car makers recommend this after a collision. Collect and read factory manuals for makes/models you work on. 11. Tint color to match vehicle (charge twice when you have 2 colors). This isn't an "included" item. Add time for 2-tone jobs, per P-Pages. 12. Removal of stripes. Old stripes have to be removed prior to refinishing. A separate charge applies. 13. Remove trim and hardware. Replacement of a fender never includes such items as the radio antenna, mudflaps, and other trim. These should be separate charges. 14. Drill to install moldings, mirrors, radio antenna, etc. Clean up LKQ parts; additional time (double overhaul) of used parts. Remember, the old door has to be gutted to transfer the inner parts. 15. Panel burn and prep adjacent panels. A radiator support, when installed, will often burn the tips of the aprons. The welds have to be cleaned up and the areas treated. 16. Remove molding adhesive or emblem adhesive. This isn't included in the time to replace the part. 17. Cleaning and retaping moldings or nameplates isn't included if you re-use them. Most often it's more cost-effective to replace, but if you save them, charge for your time. 18.Color/sand and buff isn't included but nearly always needed. Formulas are available (often 30% of the paint time) to calculate time. l9. Urethane kits (for windshields, quarter glass, back glass) are extra costs you should list on estimates. 20. Removal of fenders to install a radiator support is rarely included. If both fenders are being replaced, it's not important; it is if you replace one side and repair the other. Make a separate charge to R&I a fender you're not replacing. 21. Repair and refinish "pinch clamp" marks left after a car is removed from the bench. Restoring preloss condition includes removing telltale signs a car was mounted on a bench. 22. Check and test, or replace seat belts. Refer to both the owner's manual and the manual for the make/model in question. I-CAR has a procedure; it shouldn't be free. 23. Charge storage on total-loss vehicles, including the cost of cleaning up oil spills. Charge for extra labor to dolly a car in and out of the shop or place the vehicle on a lift for adjusters to inspect. Charge inspection and administrative fees to prepare an estimate or supplement on a borderline total. 24. Replace one-time suspension fasteners when you remove suspension. Check with car manufacturer. 25. Charge to drain/store fuel. R&I the gas tank doesn't include draining and storing fuel. Seldom is the tank empty when it needs to be removed. 26. Mask off openings. When refinishing a radiator support, we need to mask the engine compartment. Likewise the door openings when we do a rocker or quarter panel. Mitchell explains this process well in its P-Pages. 27. When you sleeve a quarter, rocker, or pillar, charge for the labor to build the sleeve; it isn't included. 28. Removal of urethane-set glass (back glass, quarter glass, etc.) isn't normally included in time to replace the quarter panel. Check the provider's P-pages. 29. Panel bonding adhesive and expandable foam. More and more quarter panels have a foam adhesive sandwiched between the outer and inner panels. 30. Brake and other fluids when you bleed brakes, or perhaps replace a power steering pump. Maybe just replacing windshield washer fluids. Everyone remembers anti-freeze but we often add other fluids. Make a fair charge. 31. Charge for bumper repair kits, fiberglass materials, and plastic welding supplies. 32. Charge for clearcoat on inner surfaces. All paint manufacturers insist you clearcoat inner surfaces of two-stage paints. 33. Degrease and steam-clean the engine compartment before working in area. Check under the hood to see if this is required. 34. Butyl tape for tail lights of some makes and models, as well as for some bolted in quarter glass. 35. Disable air bag and remove computers if welding in area. I-CAR has procedures for this. 36. R&I stereo, speakers, amps when in the way or welding in area. 37. Misc. clips and fasteners either from your own inventory or bought from the dealer. 38. Remove chip guard and replace. Formulas are listed in P-Pages. 39. Remove stone protectors (plastic) found on most truck beds and replace them. Add time to remove adhesive; this isn't included in R&R. 40. Charge for AC "O" rings replaced. 41. Free up rusted or frozen bolts. 42. Replace underhood decals. 43. VIN stickers on doors or quarters. You need time to remove a decal (cut it out) and secure a new one. Put the old ones in the glove box. 44. Charge for flex additive on bumpers and other plastic parts. 45. Aim headlights. Some systems pick this up automatically; others require a separate entry. 46. Charge to remove tool boxes, bedliners, racks, and camper shells to repair truck beds, plus other accessories like grille guards, stainless kits. 47. Remove and replace foam tape on bedrails of trucks w/camper shells. 48. Clean up broken glass. Remove tar and grease. 49. Replace aftermarket wheel-opening and door edge-guard moldings; remove adhesive. 50. Replace paint protection packages such as the "polyglycoat" and other teflon-type sealers. Often this must be done 90 days after the repaint; ask your paint supplier's advice. This isn't a complete list of P-page items. You'll find many more when you study the manuals. The collision business has a reported national net profit pof less than 5%. This means you must do $100 of business to net $5. Always recall the advice of a now retired collision repair executive: "If you don't ask, you don't get." When you incur an expense that falls outside the realm of the P-Pages, find a way to get paid fairly. It's your business; you're free to "give away" any of these items. At our shop, we regularly charge fairly for all these items, and we regularly collect.
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