-water Injection-
09-08-2003, 03:13 PM
#81
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by ZeroBanger' date='Sep 8 2003, 11:58 AM
[quote name='jspecracer7' date='Sep 7 2003, 06:29 PM'] I guarantee you with my FEED 4 core that I get just as good if not better water temps than guys running a stock mount intercooler. I NEVER see water temps above 90...****, for the longest time ran on only the medium fan setting(bad relay). When I boost, my water temps go DOWN...not up. It's not the IC up front that's the problem, it's the fan temp settings(81, 83, 85 for me)
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.
I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.
Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that. [/quote]
and we live in Okinawa Japan, it's a tropical island about the equivelent to the very south tip of Florida and we don't have cooling problems, Hell I had a 4 1/2 thick 4 core intercooler in front of my car directly in front of my radiator and had absolutly no problems while sitting in the god forsaken not moving rush houre traffic over here for hrs on end with my water temps sitting calmly at 85'c and with heat soak and every thing my intercooler still gave me 45'c intake temps that would have been probably in the 90+ range. Drive you car around and get it nice and hot, then park it and let it idle for about 10min so it'll heat soak the engine bay and intercooler pipes, now take you hand and put it on the end tank on the in side of your intercooler and then on the out side and tell me it doesn't do **** while your not moving.
You also still haven't posted how your measuring your intake temps or what type of sensor your using or where it's at.
09-08-2003, 03:25 PM
#82
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by Dragon' date='Sep 8 2003, 12:13 PM
[quote name='ZeroBanger' date='Sep 8 2003, 11:58 AM'] [quote name='jspecracer7' date='Sep 7 2003, 06:29 PM'] I guarantee you with my FEED 4 core that I get just as good if not better water temps than guys running a stock mount intercooler. I NEVER see water temps above 90...****, for the longest time ran on only the medium fan setting(bad relay). When I boost, my water temps go DOWN...not up. It's not the IC up front that's the problem, it's the fan temp settings(81, 83, 85 for me)
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.
I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.
Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that. [/quote]
and we live in Okinawa Japan, it's a tropical island about the equivelent to the very south tip of Florida and we don't have cooling problems, Hell I had a 4 1/2 thick 4 core intercooler in front of my car directly in front of my radiator and had absolutly no problems while sitting in the god forsaken not moving rush houre traffic over here for hrs on end with my water temps sitting calmly at 85'c and with heat soak and every thing my intercooler still gave me 45'c intake temps that would have been probably in the 90+ range. Drive you car around and get it nice and hot, then park it and let it idle for about 10min so it'll heat soak the engine by and intercooler pipes, now take you had and put it on the end tank on the in side of your intercooler and then on the out side and tell me it doesn't do **** while your not moving.
You also still haven't posted how your measuring your intake temps or what type of sensor your using or where it's at. [/quote]
Im not sure your point. But congrats on your intake temps, but your water temps are not normal for having a FMIC. If you lived where I do your temps would be very high.
I measure through the power FC, stock sensor, stock location.
09-08-2003, 03:50 PM
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,550
In that case I guess you don't have a datalogit or you would know about the issues with the stock air temp sensor location and how it responds very slowly to intake air temp changes and how heat soak from the upper intake manifold will also make temp changes take even longer. I also saw your post over on the evil forum where you were talking about having 75'c intake temps while normal driving yet you were claiming completely different #'s here...
Also my point is that Okinawa is hot as ****. Also you’re not even pushing the power to even need water injection so why are you being such a pain in the *** over stuff you’re just starting to experiment with that me and others have been using and testing for quite a while now. I realize your probably young and you think your the **** or maybe you just want to attract attention to yourself, but you should sit back and learn a few things before you go around telling people how much you don't know so they will spend thousands of dollars having to get an engine overhauled because they tried something you posted. I'm pretty confident that I've spent more $ buying parts and trying them out and then getting rid of them and purposely pushing engines till the blow up to see how much it will take than you've spent on your car and every thing in it. You list in your Sig "New mods include 2 cracked Apex Seals: " how did that happen? About 90% of the time it's from predetonation and if your set up was working correctly at you 300ish hp it shouldn't have happened.
Good intercooler = good
Good intercooler + water injection = great
But water injection doesn’t' replace a good intercooler and should not be run by it's self ever on a rotary engine if you want it to last and isn't even required until your getting over the 400hp mark.
Also my point is that Okinawa is hot as ****. Also you’re not even pushing the power to even need water injection so why are you being such a pain in the *** over stuff you’re just starting to experiment with that me and others have been using and testing for quite a while now. I realize your probably young and you think your the **** or maybe you just want to attract attention to yourself, but you should sit back and learn a few things before you go around telling people how much you don't know so they will spend thousands of dollars having to get an engine overhauled because they tried something you posted. I'm pretty confident that I've spent more $ buying parts and trying them out and then getting rid of them and purposely pushing engines till the blow up to see how much it will take than you've spent on your car and every thing in it. You list in your Sig "New mods include 2 cracked Apex Seals: " how did that happen? About 90% of the time it's from predetonation and if your set up was working correctly at you 300ish hp it shouldn't have happened.
Good intercooler = good
Good intercooler + water injection = great
But water injection doesn’t' replace a good intercooler and should not be run by it's self ever on a rotary engine if you want it to last and isn't even required until your getting over the 400hp mark.
09-08-2003, 05:32 PM
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 4,928
Originally Posted by ZeroBanger' date='Sep 9 2003, 04:58 AM
[quote name='jspecracer7' date='Sep 7 2003, 06:29 PM'] I guarantee you with my FEED 4 core that I get just as good if not better water temps than guys running a stock mount intercooler. I NEVER see water temps above 90...****, for the longest time ran on only the medium fan setting(bad relay). When I boost, my water temps go DOWN...not up. It's not the IC up front that's the problem, it's the fan temp settings(81, 83, 85 for me)
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.
I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.
Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that. [/quote]
Last time I talked to Ray, he was running 110 octane and a SMIC with a built in Ice chest on the IC itself so it's possible that he's changed his setup if he's got to methanol.
I can't exactly speak about the elevation on the little island of Okinawa since everything is roughly sea level, but Okinawa is a sub tropical Island...98+ F is the temp for over 6 month out of the year here. I TRIED to overheat my car by doing numerous drag runs over and over and over again(like do a 400m run, make a u-turn do another 400m run, make a u-turn etc...) and made the water temps climb to a whole 90~ This is on a single turbo HKS-T-45S making over 400 rwhp...No convincing me that FMIC will overheat my car. A good radiator with the right ducting will cool your car off. That simple.
What I don't get is how do you "cruise" and get 19C...assuming that cruising your WI is not on(I don't "cruise" and boost at the same time". I could see the 19C with WI if you were boosting, but as soon as there's no boost...your intake temps will go right back to where they normally are...don't be fooled by the stock intake temp sensor.
09-08-2003, 05:54 PM
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
In that case I guess you don't have a datalogit or you would know about the issues with the stock air temp sensor location and how it responds very slowly to intake air temp changes and how heat soak from the upper intake manifold will also make temp changes take even longer. I also saw your post over on the evil forum where you were talking about having 75'c intake temps while normal driving yet you were claiming completely different #'s here...
Excuse me? that 75C intake temps was refering to when my car was parked and heatsoaked after sitting for 30 minutes. Now if you would read on you would see that that I said by the time I was in 4th gear my intake temps had droped to 30C or so. I'm claiming anything any different there than I am here, please watch your self.
Also my point is that Okinawa is hot as ****. Also you’re not even pushing the power to even need water injection so why are you being such a pain in the *** over stuff you’re just starting to experiment with that me and others have been using and testing for quite a while now.
you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.
My last engine blew up at 12 psi when I was making 316 HP to the wheels on the dyno. I think I can use water injection, but thanks for the concern.
I realize your probably young and you think your the **** or maybe you just want to attract attention to yourself, but you should sit back and learn a few things before you go around telling people how much you don't know so they will spend thousands of dollars having to get an engine overhauled because they tried something you posted. I'm pretty confident that I've spent more $ buying parts and trying them out and then getting rid of them and purposely pushing engines till the blow up to see how much it will take than you've spent on your car and every thing in it. You list in your Sig "New mods include 2 cracked Apex Seals: " how did that happen? About 90% of the time it's from predetonation and if your set up was working correctly at you 300ish hp it shouldn't have happened.
Good intercooler = good
Good intercooler + water injection = great
But water injection doesn’t' replace a good intercooler and should not be run by it's self ever on a rotary engine if you want it to last and isn't even required until your getting over the 400hp mark.
Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.
You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.
Dont insult me again, dont call me a kid, and lastly dont ever imply that im saying anything different on this forum than on the big forum.
Later.
Excuse me? that 75C intake temps was refering to when my car was parked and heatsoaked after sitting for 30 minutes. Now if you would read on you would see that that I said by the time I was in 4th gear my intake temps had droped to 30C or so. I'm claiming anything any different there than I am here, please watch your self.
Also my point is that Okinawa is hot as ****. Also you’re not even pushing the power to even need water injection so why are you being such a pain in the *** over stuff you’re just starting to experiment with that me and others have been using and testing for quite a while now.
you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.
My last engine blew up at 12 psi when I was making 316 HP to the wheels on the dyno. I think I can use water injection, but thanks for the concern.
I realize your probably young and you think your the **** or maybe you just want to attract attention to yourself, but you should sit back and learn a few things before you go around telling people how much you don't know so they will spend thousands of dollars having to get an engine overhauled because they tried something you posted. I'm pretty confident that I've spent more $ buying parts and trying them out and then getting rid of them and purposely pushing engines till the blow up to see how much it will take than you've spent on your car and every thing in it. You list in your Sig "New mods include 2 cracked Apex Seals: " how did that happen? About 90% of the time it's from predetonation and if your set up was working correctly at you 300ish hp it shouldn't have happened.
Good intercooler = good
Good intercooler + water injection = great
But water injection doesn’t' replace a good intercooler and should not be run by it's self ever on a rotary engine if you want it to last and isn't even required until your getting over the 400hp mark.
Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.
You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.
Dont insult me again, dont call me a kid, and lastly dont ever imply that im saying anything different on this forum than on the big forum.
Later.
09-08-2003, 06:00 PM
#86
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
What I don't get is how do you "cruise" and get 19C...assuming that cruising your WI is not on(I don't "cruise" and boost at the same time". I could see the 19C with WI if you were boosting, but as soon as there's no boost...your intake temps will go right back to where they normally are...don't be fooled by the stock intake temp sensor.
when I was driving on the highway and my temps were 19 I was hitting it pretty hard. By the time my temps hit 19C if I quit hitting boost it will take about 5 minutes and then the temps will rise pretty fast at that point, unless I boost again.
While the stock temp sensor my not be immediate, its not that slow to react. In terms of tuning, sure but...lets say my car his heatsoaked and I hit boost, you can see within maybe 8-10 seconds the temps drop like a rock. So I can see it being behind by a number of seconds or so. And yes I know in terms of tuning that may be a nightmare, but in terms of my temps Im sure they are accurate.
when I was driving on the highway and my temps were 19 I was hitting it pretty hard. By the time my temps hit 19C if I quit hitting boost it will take about 5 minutes and then the temps will rise pretty fast at that point, unless I boost again.
While the stock temp sensor my not be immediate, its not that slow to react. In terms of tuning, sure but...lets say my car his heatsoaked and I hit boost, you can see within maybe 8-10 seconds the temps drop like a rock. So I can see it being behind by a number of seconds or so. And yes I know in terms of tuning that may be a nightmare, but in terms of my temps Im sure they are accurate.
09-08-2003, 06:25 PM
#87
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 4,928
Originally Posted by ZeroBanger' date='Sep 9 2003, 08:00 AM
What I don't get is how do you "cruise" and get 19C...assuming that cruising your WI is not on(I don't "cruise" and boost at the same time". I could see the 19C with WI if you were boosting, but as soon as there's no boost...your intake temps will go right back to where they normally are...don't be fooled by the stock intake temp sensor.
when I was driving on the highway and my temps were 19 I was hitting it pretty hard. By the time my temps hit 19C if I quit hitting boost it will take about 5 minutes and then the temps will rise pretty fast at that point, unless I boost again.
While the stock temp sensor my not be immediate, its not that slow to react. In terms of tuning, sure but...lets say my car his heatsoaked and I hit boost, you can see within maybe 8-10 seconds the temps drop like a rock. So I can see it being behind by a number of seconds or so. And yes I know in terms of tuning that may be a nightmare, but in terms of my temps Im sure they are accurate.
when I was driving on the highway and my temps were 19 I was hitting it pretty hard. By the time my temps hit 19C if I quit hitting boost it will take about 5 minutes and then the temps will rise pretty fast at that point, unless I boost again.
While the stock temp sensor my not be immediate, its not that slow to react. In terms of tuning, sure but...lets say my car his heatsoaked and I hit boost, you can see within maybe 8-10 seconds the temps drop like a rock. So I can see it being behind by a number of seconds or so. And yes I know in terms of tuning that may be a nightmare, but in terms of my temps Im sure they are accurate.
Either way, Large FMIC will affect flow to the radiator...but after I actually put a FMIC on and watched my water temps, that's when I realized I had no problems with cooling at all. Granted Okinawa see's 98 F day with 70% + humidity during the summer and this was my biggest concern. I had a BIG SMIC intercooler and was tired of having 70+ intake temps, but I didn't want to overheat the car so I put off getting a FMIC for the longest time. Now however, my water temps have stayed consistently low AND my intake temps dropped from 30c to 50c depending on movement.
09-08-2003, 10:39 PM
#88
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
I understand I should not have said "cruising".
with my SMIC and no water inj Im in mid to upper 30's in the morning and 40-50 in the day. ON the most hot day I'll be mid 50's on the highway.
Problem is city driving and sitting in traffic. The reason I got water injection was due to a traffic jam I was caught in during a 105 degree day. for 1 hour I was bumper to bumper and my intake temps hit 84C from the heatsoak. Every time I hit the gas to move foreward and then hit the brake my car backfired so loud. It was horrible experience.
Its amazing with the WI, even on a really hot day the car pulls hard and heatsoak doesnt matter anymore. Im happy about that anyway.
Good luck with what ever setup you use.
with my SMIC and no water inj Im in mid to upper 30's in the morning and 40-50 in the day. ON the most hot day I'll be mid 50's on the highway.
Problem is city driving and sitting in traffic. The reason I got water injection was due to a traffic jam I was caught in during a 105 degree day. for 1 hour I was bumper to bumper and my intake temps hit 84C from the heatsoak. Every time I hit the gas to move foreward and then hit the brake my car backfired so loud. It was horrible experience.
Its amazing with the WI, even on a really hot day the car pulls hard and heatsoak doesnt matter anymore. Im happy about that anyway.
Good luck with what ever setup you use.
09-09-2003, 02:29 AM
#89
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,550
Excuse me? that 75C intake temps was refering to when my car was parked and heatsoaked after sitting for 30 minutes. Now if you would read on you would see that that I said by the time I was in 4th gear my intake temps had droped to 30C or so. I'm claiming anything any different there than I am here, please watch your self.
By 4th gear they had dropped to 30'c, what about in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, you engine will blow in those gears as well.
you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.
No, I have a good intercooler and a good bumper and I know how to build my car so it won't over heat.
Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.
You have implied several times that you don't need a intercooler. O' and what I do to my car and all my customers cars is my BUSINESS because I do this every day and it's how I make a living.
You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.
And you again imply that a intercooler isn't needed. Other cars can do it because they can survive some predetonation, a rotary can't no matter what you do to it. The only way to keep a rotary engine together is to make it so it'll never knock and water injection by itself isn't going to do it because it comes online a day late and a $1 short of when the engne needs to see cooler air intake temps. A RX-7 isn't just anouther car.
By 4th gear they had dropped to 30'c, what about in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, you engine will blow in those gears as well.
you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.
No, I have a good intercooler and a good bumper and I know how to build my car so it won't over heat.
Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.
You have implied several times that you don't need a intercooler. O' and what I do to my car and all my customers cars is my BUSINESS because I do this every day and it's how I make a living.
You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.
And you again imply that a intercooler isn't needed. Other cars can do it because they can survive some predetonation, a rotary can't no matter what you do to it. The only way to keep a rotary engine together is to make it so it'll never knock and water injection by itself isn't going to do it because it comes online a day late and a $1 short of when the engne needs to see cooler air intake temps. A RX-7 isn't just anouther car.
