-water Injection-
09-07-2003, 10:05 AM
#71
Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 94
Chris I just started to play with My water injection. I was runnning 18-20 PSI on 93 with octane boost and set the trigger for the WI at 15 PSI. My AFR is very rich still 10.5 AVG and I felt the car bog when going from 2nd to third shifting at 8500 RPM.
I have faith in the Aquamist but am worried if I lean out the AFR and the WI fails I am in a bit of trouble to say the least.
What is a safe AFR with the water injection running and if I set the trigger @15PSI should I only change the fuel in the cells from 15 PSI and up?
By the way Your T-66 maps on the datalogit group with a bit of modifying are working great to say the least with the big T-72.
Steve
I have faith in the Aquamist but am worried if I lean out the AFR and the WI fails I am in a bit of trouble to say the least.
What is a safe AFR with the water injection running and if I set the trigger @15PSI should I only change the fuel in the cells from 15 PSI and up?
By the way Your T-66 maps on the datalogit group with a bit of modifying are working great to say the least with the big T-72.
Steve
09-07-2003, 12:11 PM
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by epion2985' date='Sep 5 2003, 04:18 PM
experience talks for itself, it is evident that wi doesnt eliminate the need for the ic.
ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky
ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky
Im going to say one more time. There are other cars that can eliminate the IC by use of the WI. The only reason its dangerous do do so is because the WI is not dependable. The key is to build a super dependable system.
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
We can move on to another topic or rather keep this subject on topic.
09-07-2003, 02:02 PM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by ZeroBanger' date='Sep 7 2003, 09:11 AM
[quote name='epion2985' date='Sep 5 2003, 04:18 PM'] experience talks for itself, it is evident that wi doesnt eliminate the need for the ic.
ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky
ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky
Im going to say one more time. There are other cars that can eliminate the IC by use of the WI. The only reason its dangerous do do so is because the WI is not dependable. The key is to build a super dependable system.
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
We can move on to another topic or rather keep this subject on topic. [/quote]
1.6 kgcm (23.5 psi) boost and then later I tunned to 1.7 kgcm (25 psi) of boost with my T-70 on pump gas. This is with a 4 core border racing intercooler and I was running the water injection with a .7 aquamist jet and was showing no knock what's so ever in my datalogs. This was also tunned to around 11-11.2:1 A/F ratio from around 5000 rpm up and .4 kgcm and up. The engine finaly went when the front main bearing came apart..
Here is a great fuel/hp calculator that will also factor in water injection as well..
http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/...urbo_calc.shtml
09-07-2003, 02:06 PM
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by sub-zero' date='Sep 7 2003, 07:05 AM
Chris I just started to play with My water injection. I was runnning 18-20 PSI on 93 with octane boost and set the trigger for the WI at 15 PSI. My AFR is very rich still 10.5 AVG and I felt the car bog when going from 2nd to third shifting at 8500 RPM.
I have faith in the Aquamist but am worried if I lean out the AFR and the WI fails I am in a bit of trouble to say the least.
What is a safe AFR with the water injection running and if I set the trigger @15PSI should I only change the fuel in the cells from 15 PSI and up?
By the way Your T-66 maps on the datalogit group with a bit of modifying are working great to say the least with the big T-72.
Steve
I have faith in the Aquamist but am worried if I lean out the AFR and the WI fails I am in a bit of trouble to say the least.
What is a safe AFR with the water injection running and if I set the trigger @15PSI should I only change the fuel in the cells from 15 PSI and up?
By the way Your T-66 maps on the datalogit group with a bit of modifying are working great to say the least with the big T-72.
Steve
09-07-2003, 07:57 PM
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by Dragon' date='Sep 7 2003, 11:02 AM
[quote name='ZeroBanger' date='Sep 7 2003, 09:11 AM'] [quote name='epion2985' date='Sep 5 2003, 04:18 PM'] experience talks for itself, it is evident that wi doesnt eliminate the need for the ic.
ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky
ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky
Im going to say one more time. There are other cars that can eliminate the IC by use of the WI. The only reason its dangerous do do so is because the WI is not dependable. The key is to build a super dependable system.
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
We can move on to another topic or rather keep this subject on topic. [/quote]
1.6 kgcm (23.5 psi) boost and then later I tunned to 1.7 kgcm (25 psi) of boost with my T-70 on pump gas. This is with a 4 core border racing intercooler and I was running the water injection with a .7 aquamist jet and was showing no knock what's so ever in my datalogs. This was also tunned to around 11-11.2:1 A/F ratio from around 5000 rpm up and .4 kgcm and up. The engine finaly went when the front main bearing came apart..
Here is a great fuel/hp calculator that will also factor in water injection as well..
http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/...urbo_calc.shtml [/quote]
Thats cool, but a FMIC that big blocks the radiator. All you need is enough water and a reliable system.
Yesterday I was driving and went into boost and my indicator did not light up. I blew a fuse. Then later in the day I did it again.
So im going to place the relay and other electrical stuff in the cabin for more reliablilty.
I would not recommend to anyone to just remove the IC and use WI. My only point is YES you can do it, you need ENOUGH water and for it to be reliable. The intercooler makes a great back up device, I just fear the water injection failing.
You are entitled to your opinion but i'll say again its very possible, just needs to be done right.
OH yea, and remove the water injection and lets see you run 25 PSI on pump gas on that IC.
09-07-2003, 09:29 PM
#76
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 4,928
I guarantee you with my FEED 4 core that I get just as good if not better water temps than guys running a stock mount intercooler. I NEVER see water temps above 90...****, for the longest time ran on only the medium fan setting(bad relay). When I boost, my water temps go DOWN...not up. It's not the IC up front that's the problem, it's the fan temp settings(81, 83, 85 for me)
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
09-08-2003, 01:38 AM
#77
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Planet Cusco...
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by ZeroBanger' date='Sep 7 2003, 06:11 PM
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
09-08-2003, 01:48 AM
#78
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Planet Cusco...
Posts: 53
ZeroBanger,Sep 7 2003, 06:11 PM
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
But WI in NOT new technology.... People have been using it for YEARS and YEARS.
ZeroBanger
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
This is a mapping issue. The problem is that you get people that can map piston engines really well, but a rotary is different in the fact that people are still learning them. Before the FD was easier in the fact you just play with the dizzy and fuel. Now with all this electronics and **** you have work out. Wastegate duty, ignition, fuelling and then you have to know the ECU that the CUSTOMER is using. And I don't just mean changing the odd setting, you have to know that when you change this bit, this other bit changes.
And with all the different ECU's about you would know that each one does it differently.
Dan
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
But WI in NOT new technology.... People have been using it for YEARS and YEARS.
ZeroBanger
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
This is a mapping issue. The problem is that you get people that can map piston engines really well, but a rotary is different in the fact that people are still learning them. Before the FD was easier in the fact you just play with the dizzy and fuel. Now with all this electronics and **** you have work out. Wastegate duty, ignition, fuelling and then you have to know the ECU that the CUSTOMER is using. And I don't just mean changing the odd setting, you have to know that when you change this bit, this other bit changes.
And with all the different ECU's about you would know that each one does it differently.
Dan
09-08-2003, 02:58 PM
#79
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by jspecracer7' date='Sep 7 2003, 06:29 PM
I guarantee you with my FEED 4 core that I get just as good if not better water temps than guys running a stock mount intercooler. I NEVER see water temps above 90...****, for the longest time ran on only the medium fan setting(bad relay). When I boost, my water temps go DOWN...not up. It's not the IC up front that's the problem, it's the fan temp settings(81, 83, 85 for me)
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.
Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.
I think the optimum setup would be a good *** intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.
As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.
I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.
Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that.
09-08-2003, 03:00 PM
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: bay area
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by Fish' date='Sep 7 2003, 10:48 PM
ZeroBanger,Sep 7 2003, 06:11 PM
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
But WI in NOT new technology.... People have been using it for YEARS and YEARS.
ZeroBanger
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
This is a mapping issue. The problem is that you get people that can map piston engines really well, but a rotary is different in the fact that people are still learning them. Before the FD was easier in the fact you just play with the dizzy and fuel. Now with all this electronics and **** you have work out. Wastegate duty, ignition, fuelling and then you have to know the ECU that the CUSTOMER is using. And I don't just mean changing the odd setting, you have to know that when you change this bit, this other bit changes.
And with all the different ECU's about you would know that each one does it differently.
Dan
Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.
But WI in NOT new technology.... People have been using it for YEARS and YEARS.
ZeroBanger
Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.
This is a mapping issue. The problem is that you get people that can map piston engines really well, but a rotary is different in the fact that people are still learning them. Before the FD was easier in the fact you just play with the dizzy and fuel. Now with all this electronics and **** you have work out. Wastegate duty, ignition, fuelling and then you have to know the ECU that the CUSTOMER is using. And I don't just mean changing the odd setting, you have to know that when you change this bit, this other bit changes.
And with all the different ECU's about you would know that each one does it differently.
Dan