Big Name Porting Shops Ii
01-16-2004, 11:27 AM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: La Plata, Maryland
Posts: 9,725
Originally Posted by howracer' date='Jan 16 2004, 06:40 AM
it is ironic that the rotary is considered by some to be unreliable. granted there were initial developmental issues with apex seals etc but that was a long time ago and those issues have been long ago successfully addressed. i believe that if properly clearanced and assembled the rotary engine is more reliable than the piston engine. i think most of the root of the rotary unreliablity issue comes directly from the fundamentally flawed fd oem turbo system. it was a great design on paper but it is thermally a disaster on many levels... 72 hoses baking in an oven, 22 pounds of cast iron manifolding heated to as much as 1700 degrees baking the block which is part aluminum. so we have 22 pounds of the most heat retaining material, cast iron, heated to 1500 degrees and transmitting it's heat to one of the most heat conducting materials, aluminum. bake bake bake. in addition, the design of the manifold would make anyone owning a flowbench cry. that's why there probably isn't one oem manifold on an fd today without major heat cracks. chapter 2 of this saga is inevitable. lose an engine from heat, then junk the stock turbo system if you don't want a repeat trip to engine replacemant-land. a step in the right direction but many correct decisions need to be made re fuel supply, boost etc. many opportunities to make the wrong decision. thankfully we have the internet and the incredible resources it conveys...
as i said initially it is ironic that the rotary may be considered as a dicey engine reliability-wise. road racing has been my game. 22 seasons National SCCA racing the last 6 in gt3 running a tube frame mazda rx3. i built around 30 of my piston engines. 4 cylinders, 2 valve head, overhead cam, big weber dcoe sidedrafts... w grafted exhaust ports we made 210 hp from 122 cu in/2 liters. in order to do that we had to run a huge cam (w trick roller followers) and the valve to piston clearance was almost zero... (in order to fill the cylinder). if a valve spring were to fail at 10,000 rpm, or any valve float at all, you just can imagine the carnage that would ensue. pistons rods pieces of valvetrain all over the place.
the rotary has none of that! it just needs fuel, timing and a good port job. in 6 years of racing i had only one rotary engine failure and it was sort of expected as we elected to shorten top gear a click for qualifying making the engine run 10,300 instead of 10,000 at the bottom of the hill at the end of the road atlanta backstright. we lost an apex seal but not the motor. another telling example of rotary durability is the 24 hours of daytona. at the end of the race the piston engine cars that are still running pull in the pits and are unable to idle under 3-4000 rpm as they are completely shot... valve guide are leaking etc etc. the rotaries come in and most mazda drivers make a point of getting out of their cars and letting the motors cool down by idling... and they idle just like they did before the 24 hour race. i really agree w Judge Ito that if properly fixtured and tuned the rotary is more reliable than a piston engine and everyone in SCCA that races against the rotary knows that to be a fact. this thread is about building them right and is valuable especially if it separates the good from the shoddy builders. my point is that if you build it right and put the right support pieces on the rotary should outlast lots of highly modded piston motors.
one other point re making power w the rotary. Crispeed made a huge point recently... he said that turbo'd engine builders don't spend the time they should optimizing airflow and harmonics that NA builders do. most hp gains in NA motors come from using (air)flow benches and dynoing on engine stands so as to ascertain runner length/harmonics. most turbo guys are just looking to turn up the boost, which is o k but missing a huge amount of the total hp picture. the same harmonics, charge air coming to a halt as the intake port closes etc etc apply to the rotary.
howard coleman
as i said initially it is ironic that the rotary may be considered as a dicey engine reliability-wise. road racing has been my game. 22 seasons National SCCA racing the last 6 in gt3 running a tube frame mazda rx3. i built around 30 of my piston engines. 4 cylinders, 2 valve head, overhead cam, big weber dcoe sidedrafts... w grafted exhaust ports we made 210 hp from 122 cu in/2 liters. in order to do that we had to run a huge cam (w trick roller followers) and the valve to piston clearance was almost zero... (in order to fill the cylinder). if a valve spring were to fail at 10,000 rpm, or any valve float at all, you just can imagine the carnage that would ensue. pistons rods pieces of valvetrain all over the place.
the rotary has none of that! it just needs fuel, timing and a good port job. in 6 years of racing i had only one rotary engine failure and it was sort of expected as we elected to shorten top gear a click for qualifying making the engine run 10,300 instead of 10,000 at the bottom of the hill at the end of the road atlanta backstright. we lost an apex seal but not the motor. another telling example of rotary durability is the 24 hours of daytona. at the end of the race the piston engine cars that are still running pull in the pits and are unable to idle under 3-4000 rpm as they are completely shot... valve guide are leaking etc etc. the rotaries come in and most mazda drivers make a point of getting out of their cars and letting the motors cool down by idling... and they idle just like they did before the 24 hour race. i really agree w Judge Ito that if properly fixtured and tuned the rotary is more reliable than a piston engine and everyone in SCCA that races against the rotary knows that to be a fact. this thread is about building them right and is valuable especially if it separates the good from the shoddy builders. my point is that if you build it right and put the right support pieces on the rotary should outlast lots of highly modded piston motors.
one other point re making power w the rotary. Crispeed made a huge point recently... he said that turbo'd engine builders don't spend the time they should optimizing airflow and harmonics that NA builders do. most hp gains in NA motors come from using (air)flow benches and dynoing on engine stands so as to ascertain runner length/harmonics. most turbo guys are just looking to turn up the boost, which is o k but missing a huge amount of the total hp picture. the same harmonics, charge air coming to a halt as the intake port closes etc etc apply to the rotary.
howard coleman
Howard your post just gave me more motivation to get rid of the stock twin set up than any one post I have read yet.
I would hate to lose my badass engine cause of the heat retained from the cast iron manifold.
01-16-2004, 11:33 AM
#32
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Fd3BOOST' date='Jan 16 2004, 06:00 AM
Has someone emailed Rob Golden and given him the chance to explain?
I have to assume that this the work of a bad employee.
Either way whomever did the work on that engine is no pro engine builder. I have only ported one in my life and it puts that one to shame.
I have to assume that this the work of a bad employee.
Either way whomever did the work on that engine is no pro engine builder. I have only ported one in my life and it puts that one to shame.
If Rob wants to make things right (meaning a full refund of my out of picket expenses plus a good core to replace my orignal), I'm open to it but he needs to initiate it. Never once did Rob call to make sure things were made right or try to resolve the situation - he's always too busy in back porting engines. Hell, all he had to do was take the time to build me the quality motor I paid for, how hard is that? I spent way to much time trying to contact him and work out a return/refund with nothing but pure run around.
Jack
01-16-2004, 11:34 AM
#33
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: My BIG ol TURBO-DIESEL
Posts: 5,181
When I purchased this enine (May 2002) I was a NEWBIE, afraid to do my own engine. I did my research adn decided PR had the experiance and Reputation that I could afford. I had almost convinced myself to take that $$$ and build my own, however the Missus was concerned about the longivity of my engine; and since she controlled the $$$ she agraciously allowed me to purchase an Engine from PR with a 5 year warrenty. I was paying fro Rob Goldens 20 years experience to build my engine. I feel that thelevel of quality exhibited in the internals of my engine does not reflect the $$$$ I paid. John
01-16-2004, 04:20 PM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,284
I weighed the twin turbo stuff that came off of my 20B. It was 63LBS! Yep, 63LBS hanging off the engine supported by six studs. No wonder we snapped the stud (effortlessly) on the gasket that showed signs of leaking. I guess it had serious fatigue from all those heating/cooling cycles.
The one time I called Rob's shop, Rob was too busy to talk to me. I dodged a bullet.
The one time I called Rob's shop, Rob was too busy to talk to me. I dodged a bullet.
01-17-2004, 01:14 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
Posts: 419
Why don't we put together a "registry" thread with a builder and pictures of his ports? We can use some of these pics here from the big shops, and I'm sure Ito and BDC would be happy to supply some of their artwork.
01-18-2004, 10:38 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Southeast
Posts: 502
Here I am reading all this shyttt, and I am thinking to myself........We are all here beating on our blistered gums about this fellow named ROB from Pineapple Racing, and all the F***** UP stuff he does............Why? He does'nt care even if he knew what was being said about him.
I am figuring...You buy a motor from PR, it turns out to be junk, you call, Rob now realizes there is a problem.......He finds employee A did that motor. He now needs to remedy that situation personally, Rob should now personally address this problem. Problem gone?????????? NO.........Replacement engine 2,3,4 and 5 all have the same shitty problem.
Now can someone please tell me.......Does Rob really know how to port a rotary engine? Does he really know all he claims to know. Do you think he gives a ****? I don't think this Rob knows ****! I think Rob just spends the day at work in the porting room jerking off. I bet no one knows what it looks like on the inside, probably stink as F***.
I bet..........On monday he will go into work, and ask himself which set of suckers am I going to give the shaft to this week. Yeah they are going to send me their money anyway, so what.
I AM ANGRY AND I DON'T KNOW ANY OF YOU GUYS PERSONALLY.
I AM FEELING THE PAIN..........A COUPLE OF YOU GUYS NEED TO GO SEE THIS GUY PERSONALLY..........AND HAVE HIM KNOW HOW YOU ALL REALLY FEEL. PROBABLY PUSH A PINEAPPLE UP HIS ***.
PINEAPPLE RACING............Sounds so GAY.
I am figuring...You buy a motor from PR, it turns out to be junk, you call, Rob now realizes there is a problem.......He finds employee A did that motor. He now needs to remedy that situation personally, Rob should now personally address this problem. Problem gone?????????? NO.........Replacement engine 2,3,4 and 5 all have the same shitty problem.
Now can someone please tell me.......Does Rob really know how to port a rotary engine? Does he really know all he claims to know. Do you think he gives a ****? I don't think this Rob knows ****! I think Rob just spends the day at work in the porting room jerking off. I bet no one knows what it looks like on the inside, probably stink as F***.
I bet..........On monday he will go into work, and ask himself which set of suckers am I going to give the shaft to this week. Yeah they are going to send me their money anyway, so what.
I AM FEELING THE PAIN..........A COUPLE OF YOU GUYS NEED TO GO SEE THIS GUY PERSONALLY..........AND HAVE HIM KNOW HOW YOU ALL REALLY FEEL. PROBABLY PUSH A PINEAPPLE UP HIS ***.
PINEAPPLE RACING............Sounds so GAY.
01-20-2004, 06:31 AM
#38
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kambalda, Western Australia
Posts: 10
The thought of pineapple related violence on this forum cracks me up, cos where I work getting a pineapple means you've f****ed up and the boss is gonna shove one where the sun don't shine.....just like what boost was suggesting.... One pineapple per f*** up per engine, thats alot of pineapples!
On a serious note, Its likely these con artists started as young guys excited by these small amazing engines. Maybe they should think back to how they wanted their businesses to be when they started and try building engines the same as they once did... If they always sucked, they would have died out along time ago.
On a serious note, Its likely these con artists started as young guys excited by these small amazing engines. Maybe they should think back to how they wanted their businesses to be when they started and try building engines the same as they once did... If they always sucked, they would have died out along time ago.
01-20-2004, 01:44 PM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Grand Prairie, TX
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by ClassicBuzzBox' date='Jan 20 2004, 04:31 AM
The thought of pineapple related violence on this forum cracks me up, cos where I work getting a pineapple means you've f****ed up and the boss is gonna shove one where the sun don't shine.....just like what boost was suggesting.... One pineapple per f*** up per engine, thats alot of pineapples!
On a serious note, Its likely these con artists started as young guys excited by these small amazing engines. Maybe they should think back to how they wanted their businesses to be when they started and try building engines the same as they once did... If they always sucked, they would have died out along time ago.
On a serious note, Its likely these con artists started as young guys excited by these small amazing engines. Maybe they should think back to how they wanted their businesses to be when they started and try building engines the same as they once did... If they always sucked, they would have died out along time ago.
B
01-20-2004, 02:50 PM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
Originally Posted by BDC' date='Jan 20 2004, 11:44 AM
That might be. I've wondered about that myself. It's a point of conscience to me in that, in the grand scheme of things, I'm still on starting out (professionally doing this for 2 years; not 20) and the focus of my work ethic is built entirely on my love for the sport. Maybe after awhile these guys forgot about that and their love and enthusiasm over the hobby/sport was turned into just a meaningless, "let's crank these things out" job that was more about money than anything else.
B
B