S4 13B NA REBUILD FAIL
06-07-2010, 08:44 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 4
So we rebuilt an NA 13B for a customer S4 (atkins kit, 2mm apex seals,fd sides etc etc)
having trouble getting her to pop off- threw a little ATF in it and she starts, but pisses oil out of the top driver side of the front iron.
bad o ring around the oil dowel or something?
This kid is pissed and Im out of time and patience..
Once I pull her back appart am I gonna need new coolant seals? or can I reuse them with some new liquid gasket?
I know I prolly cant but maybe, just maybe..
I really cant figure it out. She floods out a lot at start up which is normal from what I have read/seen, but couldnt fire her up without ATF. Compression "sounds" good (ka whoosh! ka whoosh!) ..wow. but anyways Im stuck and need your guys help.
thanks for any insight into this matter!
having trouble getting her to pop off- threw a little ATF in it and she starts, but pisses oil out of the top driver side of the front iron.
bad o ring around the oil dowel or something?
This kid is pissed and Im out of time and patience..
Once I pull her back appart am I gonna need new coolant seals? or can I reuse them with some new liquid gasket?
I know I prolly cant but maybe, just maybe..
I really cant figure it out. She floods out a lot at start up which is normal from what I have read/seen, but couldnt fire her up without ATF. Compression "sounds" good (ka whoosh! ka whoosh!) ..wow. but anyways Im stuck and need your guys help.
thanks for any insight into this matter!
06-07-2010, 11:57 AM
#2
Fabricator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Ohio (Hebron) Zephyrhills Fla.
Posts: 1,322
So we rebuilt an NA 13B for a customer S4 (atkins kit, 2mm apex seals,fd sides etc etc)
having trouble getting her to pop off- threw a little ATF in it and she starts, but pisses oil out of the top driver side of the front iron.
bad o ring around the oil dowel or something?
This kid is pissed and Im out of time and patience..
Once I pull her back appart am I gonna need new coolant seals? or can I reuse them with some new liquid gasket?
I know I prolly cant but maybe, just maybe..
I really cant figure it out. She floods out a lot at start up which is normal from what I have read/seen, but couldnt fire her up without ATF. Compression "sounds" good (ka whoosh! ka whoosh!) ..wow. but anyways Im stuck and need your guys help.
thanks for any insight into this matter!
having trouble getting her to pop off- threw a little ATF in it and she starts, but pisses oil out of the top driver side of the front iron.
bad o ring around the oil dowel or something?
This kid is pissed and Im out of time and patience..
Once I pull her back appart am I gonna need new coolant seals? or can I reuse them with some new liquid gasket?
I know I prolly cant but maybe, just maybe..
I really cant figure it out. She floods out a lot at start up which is normal from what I have read/seen, but couldnt fire her up without ATF. Compression "sounds" good (ka whoosh! ka whoosh!) ..wow. but anyways Im stuck and need your guys help.
thanks for any insight into this matter!
That would be a broken, damaged, or wrong sized "O" ring. Too much sealant in the groove with the ring can cause it to extrude out of the groove and get pinched, holding the housing and iron apart a bit. On the legs down to the pan rail, if you forget the sealant (I use silicone) or it gets scraped during assembly, then the leak will be just above the pan rail.
Coolant seals get crushed during assembly, so when removed will br too long to reinstall. I cut the black water ring at a steep amgle with a razor. Remove the excess material (about 1/2")and install with that joint at the top of the engine. Add a drop or two of silicone and it will never leak.
If you add a sealant to the grooves that bead of sealant must be very small, like smaller than a piece of 18 gage wire.
For the compression seal ring make a similar cut and put the joint between the intake and exhaust port. Another drop of silicone at the joint. This works just fine. In a "J" bridgeport engine I remove about 2 1/2" of seal ring where it would be hanging into the port. Never a problem.
If this is a NA street engine (NON Renesis) I would install side seals at zero end clearance. So long as both seal ends and the corner seal pop up when released, it will be enough.
Needing oil to make enough compression to start is a common problem. If the irons have been surfaced, it will take a bit of break-in time to gain some compression, while the side seals become happy with the irons.
Rotary engines have low compression and long seal lengths with many end gaps. So the leak rate is very high. Low compression means low heat of compression, and that means poor burning rates at cranking speeds. This gets you an engine that seems to try to start, but never does. It makes the right noises and the engine gets warm after a while, but no start. So improved cranking speeds are a big help because this overcomes the high leak rate. A hot start style battery charger will usually work. A jump from a running car or truck usually works. Many folks have found that a gentle push start in 2nd gear is just right for an easy start. Clean battery posts and connectors. A battery ground strap that ends under a starter bolt head, cleaned to bare metal and greased, will perk things up.
I used to use a 50/50 mix of motor oil and gasoline in an oil squirt can to start racing engines the first time. After 2 hours of fast idle, they start instantly with no tricks at all.
Racing engines have later intake closing points and even lower compression.
If you have new seals use them. If a customer paid for new seals then new seals it is.
Too soon old. too late smart.
Lynn E. Hanover
06-08-2010, 06:53 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 4
That would be a broken, damaged, or wrong sized "O" ring. Too much sealant in the groove with the ring can cause it to extrude out of the groove and get pinched, holding the housing and iron apart a bit. On the legs down to the pan rail, if you forget the sealant (I use silicone) or it gets scraped during assembly, then the leak will be just above the pan rail.
Coolant seals get crushed during assembly, so when removed will br too long to reinstall. I cut the black water ring at a steep amgle with a razor. Remove the excess material (about 1/2")and install with that joint at the top of the engine. Add a drop or two of silicone and it will never leak.
If you add a sealant to the grooves that bead of sealant must be very small, like smaller than a piece of 18 gage wire.
For the compression seal ring make a similar cut and put the joint between the intake and exhaust port. Another drop of silicone at the joint. This works just fine. In a "J" bridgeport engine I remove about 2 1/2" of seal ring where it would be hanging into the port. Never a problem.
If this is a NA street engine (NON Renesis) I would install side seals at zero end clearance. So long as both seal ends and the corner seal pop up when released, it will be enough.
Needing oil to make enough compression to start is a common problem. If the irons have been surfaced, it will take a bit of break-in time to gain some compression, while the side seals become happy with the irons.
Rotary engines have low compression and long seal lengths with many end gaps. So the leak rate is very high. Low compression means low heat of compression, and that means poor burning rates at cranking speeds. This gets you an engine that seems to try to start, but never does. It makes the right noises and the engine gets warm after a while, but no start. So improved cranking speeds are a big help because this overcomes the high leak rate. A hot start style battery charger will usually work. A jump from a running car or truck usually works. Many folks have found that a gentle push start in 2nd gear is just right for an easy start. Clean battery posts and connectors. A battery ground strap that ends under a starter bolt head, cleaned to bare metal and greased, will perk things up.
I used to use a 50/50 mix of motor oil and gasoline in an oil squirt can to start racing engines the first time. After 2 hours of fast idle, they start instantly with no tricks at all.
Racing engines have later intake closing points and even lower compression.
If you have new seals use them. If a customer paid for new seals then new seals it is.
Too soon old. too late smart.
Lynn E. Hanover
Coolant seals get crushed during assembly, so when removed will br too long to reinstall. I cut the black water ring at a steep amgle with a razor. Remove the excess material (about 1/2")and install with that joint at the top of the engine. Add a drop or two of silicone and it will never leak.
If you add a sealant to the grooves that bead of sealant must be very small, like smaller than a piece of 18 gage wire.
For the compression seal ring make a similar cut and put the joint between the intake and exhaust port. Another drop of silicone at the joint. This works just fine. In a "J" bridgeport engine I remove about 2 1/2" of seal ring where it would be hanging into the port. Never a problem.
If this is a NA street engine (NON Renesis) I would install side seals at zero end clearance. So long as both seal ends and the corner seal pop up when released, it will be enough.
Needing oil to make enough compression to start is a common problem. If the irons have been surfaced, it will take a bit of break-in time to gain some compression, while the side seals become happy with the irons.
Rotary engines have low compression and long seal lengths with many end gaps. So the leak rate is very high. Low compression means low heat of compression, and that means poor burning rates at cranking speeds. This gets you an engine that seems to try to start, but never does. It makes the right noises and the engine gets warm after a while, but no start. So improved cranking speeds are a big help because this overcomes the high leak rate. A hot start style battery charger will usually work. A jump from a running car or truck usually works. Many folks have found that a gentle push start in 2nd gear is just right for an easy start. Clean battery posts and connectors. A battery ground strap that ends under a starter bolt head, cleaned to bare metal and greased, will perk things up.
I used to use a 50/50 mix of motor oil and gasoline in an oil squirt can to start racing engines the first time. After 2 hours of fast idle, they start instantly with no tricks at all.
Racing engines have later intake closing points and even lower compression.
If you have new seals use them. If a customer paid for new seals then new seals it is.
Too soon old. too late smart.
Lynn E. Hanover
cool, very well spoken. I really needed some experienced input on this one.
next noob question-
Where can I just buy coolant rings by themselves for S4 NA? Looked on atkins etc (but maybe not good enough)
and how about the right side seals. I have more than 0 clearance on them and sounds like i used too much hylomar while installing compression ring and coolant ring.
wow. thanks again.
06-08-2010, 09:19 PM
#5
Fabricator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Ohio (Hebron) Zephyrhills Fla.
Posts: 1,322
cool, very well spoken. I really needed some experienced input on this one.
next noob question-
Where can I just buy coolant rings by themselves for S4 NA? Looked on atkins etc (but maybe not good enough)
and how about the right side seals. I have more than 0 clearance on them and sounds like i used too much hylomar while installing compression ring and coolant ring.
wow. thanks again.
next noob question-
Where can I just buy coolant rings by themselves for S4 NA? Looked on atkins etc (but maybe not good enough)
and how about the right side seals. I have more than 0 clearance on them and sounds like i used too much hylomar while installing compression ring and coolant ring.
wow. thanks again.
Racing Beat. Mazda Trix. Real world solutions or (Gasp) even a Mazda dealer. For side seals and water seals. The rings come in an overhaul kit with all of the rubber seals but no hard parts.
The book allows up to .003" for side seal end clearance, and you can select fit the seals, and or, seals from other engines. Most folks have a can full of old seals in the shop.
If you want to walk on the wild side most packing houses have square seal ring material on rolls that sells by the foot. Creedy seal company sells a Teflon encapsulated ring that works in rotaries. The seals need not be square. Round seals work fine. Read up on seal fits and groove dementions used. The seals do not get hotter than the iron or aluminum housings.
Check the AREN web site http://www.rotaryeng.net/ for the part numbers. Sold through McMaster-Carr catalogue as well. The seals are round but work fine. Used in engines for home built airplanes. Can be reused many times.
Lynn E. Hanover
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