Clr Motorsporst Built My Engine!
04-07-2005, 03:53 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 629
I took the plunge a few weeks ago after talking with Carlos Lopez at CLR Motorsports about a 20B project I had envisioned. My two rotor Cosmo was on the way out so I went ahead and yanked it to avoid grenading the motor completely. After tearing down the motor, I headed over to CLR in Miami to show Carlos the parts and get opinions/facts on what went wrong with the engine. I had been using 2mm 2 piece Atkins seals with the RE/REW (9.0:1) rotors, used but mint housings and my own porting. I had someone else clearance all the parts. Carlos took the time to go through each of the engine parts piece by piece pointing out what was good (my secondary port job) and what was bad (everything else!!!).
With that we sat down and formulated an engine building plan to fit my budget. Now I am no newbie but two things became abundantly clear. The first was just how little I know about rotary engines, even after all these years. Two, I was going to exceed my budget by a substantial amount. I will cut to the chase, the extra expense was well worth it. Carlos Lopez is an incredible engine builder with decades of professional level work under his belt. His engine building abilities are second to none. Anyone can build a rotary engine. Some people can build decent rotary engines. Few can build an engine that will pull nines on all faces, front and rear. I went to CLR based on their reputation and the fact I was tired of paying for half *** knowledge and ok engines. I wanted someone with real racing experience and a professional resume. We all know how many engine builders there are like that in the country. Maybe five? And out of those five, how many do we have realistic access to? Maybe two including CLR. Now one can always call up Rick Engman and see if he will build you an engine but dont hold your breath!
In essence, what I had CLR build was a top notch road race engine with all the bells/whistles save one modification to the crank that I really did not need due to the cars (apostrophe key broken) intended usage, track days and the grind of street driving. The list of modifications is long;
lightened rotors
port phasing (scalloped rotors)
clearanced
static balance
3mm apex seal groove modification (3mm Mazda seals)
bearing deep oil groove modification
Viton o rings
eccentric shaft race preparation
oil jet turbo mod
match port
exhaust port
side housing resurface
oil mods
cooling mods
etc....
Pretty much everything is new except for a few bearings which were in mint condition. The engine flows enough air for 600 rear wheel hp. Remember, its a street port!
The rotors in question are low compression rotors, lightened to 93+ spec (lowest allowable weight) and dynamically balanced. Their lower compression ratio will allow for much higher sustained boost levels on pump gas and an extra margin of safety, especially along with the 3mm seals.
I needed a new rear plate and Carlos sourced me a new unit at cost and port matched the secondaries and did his own port job on the primaries since I had left them fairly untouched. All the porting and engine assembly was done by Carlos personally, not by an understudy or someone with limited rotary building experience. About sixty hours are spent on an engine assembly. No kidding.
There are a distinct lack of rotorheads in my vicinity and as such, I had to install the engine myself, sans air tools or someone to help. I dressed the engine fully before installation, something I spent two days doing. I believe I spent about $100 on new nuts/bolts/washers alone for the entire turbo system. My GT4082 was upgraded to a GT4088 compressor curtesey of A Spec Tuning and Majestic Turbo. Hot side is a .94. I am in no way shooting for 600 at the wheels but a more friendly, broad powerband with a killer midrange.
Carlos can not only port and build, but he is an exceptional tuner as well. I had several calls from him personally while I was going through the installation process and again while I was/am tuning and breaking in the new motor. We are using a few unique tricks to help with turbo spool, bottom end and to counter any side effects of lower compression rotors. For the record, the engine felt no less lazy than with high compression rotors. We are running seriously negative split in the vacuum areas to increase EGT and spool the turbo. While I am keeping out of boost for at least a few hundred miles, the turbo spools even while in vacuum. It is audible. It makes my hair stand on end
Another trick (which does work) is the use of the double throttle bodies to force all air through the primaries until a predetermined boost point. We have yet to figure out what that point is as of yet. But at say 2 or 3psi, they will be slammed open. Bottom end response is greatly improved and the car accelerates much more quickly as a result. I will have a full writeup once I have the system up and running. It is quite simple and not overly complicated.
I did manage to install the engine myself, not without a few hiccups along the way. I somehow forgot to turn the Exedy clutch disk the correct way and had to remove the engine, flip the disk, and reinsert the engine (was easier at the time than pulling the transmission). Somehow, along the way I also managed to damage my Fluidyne AND my A/C condenser. But thanks to forum members, I was able to acquire less expensive (than new) replacement parts. That damn coolant buzzer will not stop. I believe I tweaked the wire somewhere in the harness as all the appropriate plugs are well, plugged! I disabled the buzzer to save my sanity.
Once installed, I carefully primed the oil system per CLR instructions. I also kept the turbo from spinning during startup. Amazingly she fired right up and after a bit of tweaking via the Datalogit, she idled smoothly. All was not perfect with the initial tune, but Carlos has straightened me out and pointed me in the right direction. He has been invaluable. I chose to run 850cc primaries which can be problematic but I think I have my solution and they should be perfect.
I am going to take my time tuning the engine and then probably have CLR do the final tune. With a really bad tune, it will not matter who built your engine.
I spent quite a bit of money on this engine. Just to build the engine costs $1,500. Experience is not free and CLRs experience is well worth the entry price. All told, the bill was about $5K not including the cost of two low comp turbo II rotors and new housings. While that sounds expensive, there is another forum member with a CLR built engine who is making 490 to the rear wheels (pump gas), tracks the car in hot Florida on a regular basis (once a month that I see because I am at the same events) and has made over 180 pulls on the dyno with the same engine. I believe his engine is about 3 years old at this point. I have been through two engines in about the same amount of time. Figure in the cost of building each one of those average engines and the cost doesnt seem to be unreasonable. Not to mention the fact that those engines had none of the prep and technology of my current engine. I am just very very happy with the engine, support and also because I did it right. The way it should be done without skimping. I think if more of us did this, the rotary engine would not seems as unreliable as everyone makes it out to be.
One of the reasons I went with the modified bits is due to the weak 93+ rotors. They are quite thin, can twist and melt easily, and are generally perceived to be a major weak link at about 400rwhp. There is too little fudge factor with them on pump to be a good idea according to CLR. Carlos had several rotors cut lengthwise showing the difference in casting thickness. It was fairly apparent that the 93+ rotors had the lowest build quality. Wall thickess was not very uniform and generally speaking, the rotor weights for any given REW motor are pretty far off.
I am now driving the car on a daily basis, tuning vacuum portions of the map and getting miles on the engine. It is already quite warm down here in Florida (80 degrees plus F). With certain modifications made to the engine/cooling system, the car can run at a PFC indicated 79 degrees celsius depending on where I set the fans. I have bumped them up to 82 where the car seems to stay.
Anyway, I am sure I will have more to post as the engine is run in a bit more and we start tuning on boost. I personally cannot wait! It will be great to have the car back in its full, bad *** form once again!
With that we sat down and formulated an engine building plan to fit my budget. Now I am no newbie but two things became abundantly clear. The first was just how little I know about rotary engines, even after all these years. Two, I was going to exceed my budget by a substantial amount. I will cut to the chase, the extra expense was well worth it. Carlos Lopez is an incredible engine builder with decades of professional level work under his belt. His engine building abilities are second to none. Anyone can build a rotary engine. Some people can build decent rotary engines. Few can build an engine that will pull nines on all faces, front and rear. I went to CLR based on their reputation and the fact I was tired of paying for half *** knowledge and ok engines. I wanted someone with real racing experience and a professional resume. We all know how many engine builders there are like that in the country. Maybe five? And out of those five, how many do we have realistic access to? Maybe two including CLR. Now one can always call up Rick Engman and see if he will build you an engine but dont hold your breath!
In essence, what I had CLR build was a top notch road race engine with all the bells/whistles save one modification to the crank that I really did not need due to the cars (apostrophe key broken) intended usage, track days and the grind of street driving. The list of modifications is long;
lightened rotors
port phasing (scalloped rotors)
clearanced
static balance
3mm apex seal groove modification (3mm Mazda seals)
bearing deep oil groove modification
Viton o rings
eccentric shaft race preparation
oil jet turbo mod
match port
exhaust port
side housing resurface
oil mods
cooling mods
etc....
Pretty much everything is new except for a few bearings which were in mint condition. The engine flows enough air for 600 rear wheel hp. Remember, its a street port!
The rotors in question are low compression rotors, lightened to 93+ spec (lowest allowable weight) and dynamically balanced. Their lower compression ratio will allow for much higher sustained boost levels on pump gas and an extra margin of safety, especially along with the 3mm seals.
I needed a new rear plate and Carlos sourced me a new unit at cost and port matched the secondaries and did his own port job on the primaries since I had left them fairly untouched. All the porting and engine assembly was done by Carlos personally, not by an understudy or someone with limited rotary building experience. About sixty hours are spent on an engine assembly. No kidding.
There are a distinct lack of rotorheads in my vicinity and as such, I had to install the engine myself, sans air tools or someone to help. I dressed the engine fully before installation, something I spent two days doing. I believe I spent about $100 on new nuts/bolts/washers alone for the entire turbo system. My GT4082 was upgraded to a GT4088 compressor curtesey of A Spec Tuning and Majestic Turbo. Hot side is a .94. I am in no way shooting for 600 at the wheels but a more friendly, broad powerband with a killer midrange.
Carlos can not only port and build, but he is an exceptional tuner as well. I had several calls from him personally while I was going through the installation process and again while I was/am tuning and breaking in the new motor. We are using a few unique tricks to help with turbo spool, bottom end and to counter any side effects of lower compression rotors. For the record, the engine felt no less lazy than with high compression rotors. We are running seriously negative split in the vacuum areas to increase EGT and spool the turbo. While I am keeping out of boost for at least a few hundred miles, the turbo spools even while in vacuum. It is audible. It makes my hair stand on end
Another trick (which does work) is the use of the double throttle bodies to force all air through the primaries until a predetermined boost point. We have yet to figure out what that point is as of yet. But at say 2 or 3psi, they will be slammed open. Bottom end response is greatly improved and the car accelerates much more quickly as a result. I will have a full writeup once I have the system up and running. It is quite simple and not overly complicated.
I did manage to install the engine myself, not without a few hiccups along the way. I somehow forgot to turn the Exedy clutch disk the correct way and had to remove the engine, flip the disk, and reinsert the engine (was easier at the time than pulling the transmission). Somehow, along the way I also managed to damage my Fluidyne AND my A/C condenser. But thanks to forum members, I was able to acquire less expensive (than new) replacement parts. That damn coolant buzzer will not stop. I believe I tweaked the wire somewhere in the harness as all the appropriate plugs are well, plugged! I disabled the buzzer to save my sanity.
Once installed, I carefully primed the oil system per CLR instructions. I also kept the turbo from spinning during startup. Amazingly she fired right up and after a bit of tweaking via the Datalogit, she idled smoothly. All was not perfect with the initial tune, but Carlos has straightened me out and pointed me in the right direction. He has been invaluable. I chose to run 850cc primaries which can be problematic but I think I have my solution and they should be perfect.
I am going to take my time tuning the engine and then probably have CLR do the final tune. With a really bad tune, it will not matter who built your engine.
I spent quite a bit of money on this engine. Just to build the engine costs $1,500. Experience is not free and CLRs experience is well worth the entry price. All told, the bill was about $5K not including the cost of two low comp turbo II rotors and new housings. While that sounds expensive, there is another forum member with a CLR built engine who is making 490 to the rear wheels (pump gas), tracks the car in hot Florida on a regular basis (once a month that I see because I am at the same events) and has made over 180 pulls on the dyno with the same engine. I believe his engine is about 3 years old at this point. I have been through two engines in about the same amount of time. Figure in the cost of building each one of those average engines and the cost doesnt seem to be unreasonable. Not to mention the fact that those engines had none of the prep and technology of my current engine. I am just very very happy with the engine, support and also because I did it right. The way it should be done without skimping. I think if more of us did this, the rotary engine would not seems as unreliable as everyone makes it out to be.
One of the reasons I went with the modified bits is due to the weak 93+ rotors. They are quite thin, can twist and melt easily, and are generally perceived to be a major weak link at about 400rwhp. There is too little fudge factor with them on pump to be a good idea according to CLR. Carlos had several rotors cut lengthwise showing the difference in casting thickness. It was fairly apparent that the 93+ rotors had the lowest build quality. Wall thickess was not very uniform and generally speaking, the rotor weights for any given REW motor are pretty far off.
I am now driving the car on a daily basis, tuning vacuum portions of the map and getting miles on the engine. It is already quite warm down here in Florida (80 degrees plus F). With certain modifications made to the engine/cooling system, the car can run at a PFC indicated 79 degrees celsius depending on where I set the fans. I have bumped them up to 82 where the car seems to stay.
Anyway, I am sure I will have more to post as the engine is run in a bit more and we start tuning on boost. I personally cannot wait! It will be great to have the car back in its full, bad *** form once again!
04-07-2005, 07:45 PM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 629
I believe for the port phasing, lightening and balancing is around a grand for two rotors. I don't have my bill in front of me at the moment!
Michel
[quote name='guitarjunkie28' date='Apr 7 2005, 01:37 PM']how much were the rotors and balancing?
[/quote]
Michel
[quote name='guitarjunkie28' date='Apr 7 2005, 01:37 PM']how much were the rotors and balancing?
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04-08-2005, 01:10 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 186
[quote name='vosko' date='Apr 8 2005, 10:30 AM']all of that sounds good only thing i don't like is the low compression rotors........its just a pet peeve of mine...... get it tuned and on the dyno already!!
[/quote]
Nothing wrong with low compression rotors just add more boost!!!
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Nothing wrong with low compression rotors just add more boost!!!
04-08-2005, 04:05 PM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 629
Boost creates horsepower, not compression. I will be able to run about 4 to 5psi more boost with low compression rotors than I would with the high comp. rotors. Combine that with Mazda's manufacturing inconsistencies on the RE and REW rotors and it's a no brainer in my book. I do not notice a bit of difference in off-boost response. Right now I'm keeping the motor at under 5K and under 10psi of boost until about 1000 miles. Then I'll get her tuned!
Michel
Michel
04-08-2005, 04:44 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 186
Yeah people forget that 8.5 compression rotors are more forgiving than 9.0 compression rotors when it comes to pump gas. I like the idea of the 8.5 compression rotors and when you can get them as light as the 93 rotors even better. How much does CLR charge just to lighten a set of rotors? I have their number and will try to get a hold of them.
04-08-2005, 05:56 PM
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 629
I "think" it's around $300 a rotor...not positve so don't quote me on that!
Michel
[quote name='13BTNOS' date='Apr 8 2005, 01:43 PM']Yeah people forget that 8.5 compression rotors are more forgiving than 9.0 compression rotors when it comes to pump gas. I like the idea of the 8.5 compression rotors and when you can get them as light as the 93 rotors even better. How much does CLR charge just to lighten a set of rotors? I have their number and will try to get a hold of them.
[/quote]
Michel
[quote name='13BTNOS' date='Apr 8 2005, 01:43 PM']Yeah people forget that 8.5 compression rotors are more forgiving than 9.0 compression rotors when it comes to pump gas. I like the idea of the 8.5 compression rotors and when you can get them as light as the 93 rotors even better. How much does CLR charge just to lighten a set of rotors? I have their number and will try to get a hold of them.
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