j200pruf

Hey all, I was just wondering, first off is there any real benifits from using either Ceramic Dry Film Lubricants or Titanium Nitride on internal engine weat components like, Oil Pumps Bearings, E-Shafts etc...

Also what are the major differences between the two, and which one whould you all say is better



:discuss:



If you have no clue about this stuff please stay out of it.



Thanks

-Justin

j9fd3s

bumporino!

Cheers!

The only thing I would nitride are the side plates. You can recover the side plates by lapping the existing nitriding surface off and removing any variations int he surface finish.



Then have the shop re-nitride your plates according to AMS-H-6875.

chase78

The so called "WET FILM COATING" is not a film but a compond like to teflon but with very small molcules that is embedded into the metal.

ITS GREAT for cold morning start up where most of the engine wear (85%) accurses.



the nitride that comes on the side housing is "HARD HARD HARD" stuff. Its three steps below daimonds on the hardness scale. Mazda uses it for two reason

1. Its prettycheap (if you do it in bulk) to put the nitrite coating on

2. They dont have to make the side housings out of forged steel, saving money.



The reason why the nitride coating wears is because of weakness of the steel underneath the nitrite (casted iron) so the nitite sorta flacks off...we see it in the form of it making deep grooves.



CERMET or cermamic/metallic [hybrid name] is just what it sounds like a mixing of metal and cermamic.... there are tons of differernt ratio mix and chemical agents additives to get differernt properties.



SO the DRY FILM is good for beaings and/or the e-shaft





Nitride is good for making things harder.... but for a more cunsumer friendly version the best would be cryo freezing...... it been used for years on crank shafts to make them stronger

Cheers!

So youa re saying nitride sucks and we should use dry film aka telflon coatings? Don't forget teflon is a organic compound. It will not last in an engine application. You can think of the side plates and the side seal operation in the same way the piston ring and bore interact. THe reason why you increase surface hardness is to reduce wear is it not? That is why you nirtride the surface so that you decrease wear on the side and intermediate plates. Remember! Mazda designed the plates and the side seals. They designed the side seal hardness to match the nitrided surface of the plates so they will wear even and you won't have one surface faililng before the other. Almost all high production engine peices are cast. I don't even think it is logistically possible to make forged castings in such high quantities. Plus there is no reason to forge the side plates. Why would you need so much strength on a side plate where all you care about is flatness and correct surface finish anyhow.



Cryotreating is not proven to increase tensile or ultimate strength in anything, nor does it increase surface hardness.

j9fd3s

actually you can take this the other way. the is a difference in wear without the nitrading but its not a large one.

j200pruf

Hey Cheers, what exactly is Dry Film Lubricant(DFL). Some places say there's is WS2 (Tungsten Disulfide) HPC uses Molybdenum Disulfide??



Is the DFL stuff really as neat as everyone says there product is?

Cheesy

the nitriding on the side plates is not a coating, nitrogen atoms are introduced into the iron unit cells (cant remember if interstitial or substitutional though) this causes an internal strain making the material harder, in a similar way to preload on a spring making it appear stiffer. Forged steel would not be used in a wear situation like the side plates, cast iron has far superior wear properties. The nitriding on the mazda housing is not actually particuarly hard. Some ceremets are better, lots are worse. There are hundreds of variables here, some ceremets even contain solid lubricants. Im not familiar with the lubricant coatings but I have found that TiN (and various other PVD coatings) can give huge reductions in wear and depending on the lubrication regime also reduce friction.

j200pruf

So using these on engine parts is a watse of time?

Cheesy

when i get the chance i do want to try TiN coated apex seals and oil control rings, the gains from the PVD coatings everywhere else would be minimal, i have no idea about the solid lubricant coatings, these might be good for the oil pump and things like that, even then you would probably get better results from tidying up all of the oil gallaries