12APPT

Hey guys, been searching the forums a bit and reading up on DIY dry sumps. I read a lot about the loop line mod, removing the oil flow through the upper dowels and tapping the front Iron with a dash 10. Flat plate instead of an oil pan. Can anyone else elaborate on this? I am wanting to get some aluminum and make the oil "pan", and possibly get an oil pan brace for it, for added security.



This is the pump that I will use, seems to do the job:



http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku



Mount that on a steel plate where the AC used to go, and get a belt ran for it. Would this be sufficient?



Also, I plan on running a Re-Speed remote oil filter block. Not sure if I should go Dual or Single yet.



As for the car, this car will be a bridgeport 12a in an 83 RX. Max RPM is 8000, using stock parts and master rebuild. After engine break in, going turbo and aiming for 6-8lbs. I already have the FMOC from a earlier RX mounted. Car will be street driven, with a few track days a year.



This is the oil system I plan on running (thanks Lynn, I borrowed your picture)







A lot of the old threads on this have no pictures, and I am more of a visual learner. I have access to 12a irons and housings in case anyone needs me to take pictures of a side or something to better clarify.



Thanks!

heretic

Is there a percieved need for a dry sump, or is it just for cool factor?



(Cool factor can never be discounted!)

12APPT

Cool factor and paranoia. Want the best for my car.





...Plus I am getting into miata's, where I need the engine to be as low as possible so I don't have to do much with the firewall and trans tunnel.

Lynn E. Hanover

Well,

When I went to Naval Aviation Ordnance "A" school at Jacksonville Florida in 1960, the instructor pounded this into our mush filled heads.........................Nomenclature, Nomenclature, Nomenclatue.



Why would that be so important? So several folks can talk on the phone and transmit data back and forth without errors. So if I ask you to send me a set of breachblock slide spring guides, for my MK3 20MM automatic cannon, there will be no chance at all that you will send me a similar piece from a MK16 20MM automatic cannon. Everyone has to use the same name for everything, or confusion results.



The pictures are both of a street system that would use either a stock oil pan, or a modified stock oil pan.



There should be a flat plate and an additional pan gasket used with the flat plate, for hard street use. This flat plate is called a baffle. It can be made of nearly any thickness aluminum or steel sheet stock, or a plate if you want that. It has one hole about 4" in diameter centered under the center iron. Three more holes for the oil pickup tube, with a gasket on both sides. This plate is used to keep the oil supply from running away from the pickup. Under braking, the entire oil supply will fit nicely in the front cover. The pickup need not be totally uncovered to cause a problem.



Notice the inside out tornado in the bathtub as the water runs out. A vortex. The same thing happens in all fluid systems such as your oil pan. So a vortex can form when the oil level over the pickup is low enough, as when under braking or cornering, and the pump will get air instead of oil. Very bad MoJo.



In a dry sump system there is no pan. Just a flat plate. Usually aluminum, and thick enough to support the engine on a jack pad. A special oil pump is used that is actually three oil pumps on one shaft. Two of the pumps pull spent oil and gasses out of the bottom of the engine, through pickup tubes.

That oil is then filtered, cooled and dropped back into a holding tank. The pressure section pulls oil out of the tank bottom and pressurizes it and forces it through a filter, then a cooler, then into the engine at the filter adaptor block. Oil pressure is controlled at the pressure section, and any pressure you might want can be dialed up. This pump is turned by a toothed belt run from the pulley system you pictured.



There are two good reasons, to use a dry sump system. It gets the engine mass closer to the ground on road racers. And, where the engine will spend most of its life above 9,000 RPM.



The hard use street system does fine as a road racer system with a stock pump, and the baffle as above. It is cheap, and requires no maintainance at all.



The dry sump system with a new pump would be a bit over $2,500 with new hoses and tank filters, coolers and so on. I can recommend the early Peterson round pumps. But not the later square Petersons.

Also the Moroso round pump with the Ford pressure section. (bigger than standard) Runs about $1,800.00. Used pumps are available in many web sites and magazines. Havr the pump apart before you pay for a used one. I bought a Weaver Brothers one that had most of a Chevy engine stuck in it.



Know your Nomenclature.



Lynn E. Hanover



If you like 4s, I was 44 the year you were born. Today is my 44th weding anniversary.



I have used up my attachment posting space, so if you send me a private Email address I will send along pictures of whatever you might want to see.

scot62

Just notice about front regulator's not required,only leave the rear reg in !

12APPT

Thanks Lynn. Not sure what you mean by know my nomenclature, I thought I described it well, abet in laymens terms.



So it looks like I will be needing to get a pump somewhat like this then:



http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku



Now let me see if I get this correct:







This is the layout of the Dry sump system? I got confused when you stated it goes out the engine, through filter and cooler, into pump then sump... Then you said it gets filtered and cooled again? Does this mean dual oil coolers and dual filters, one for pre sump and one for post sump?



Also, as for what 1962 stated, I can remove the front regulator and leave the rear in? I will modify it to put out about 100psi of oil pressure. I hear that 10psi per 1000RPM is a safe zone (not saying to run 10psi at idle), but with 8000rpm being the limit, I think 100psi should supply enough juice to the bearings.



Congrats on the anniversary

scot62

Sorry for but-in.

what I means's it for hard street use only and don't need one for dry sump as it's got build- in reg(adjusting pressure screw in the pump).

I've starting going for lynn's route of hard street use( 13BPP) with one rear reg and no front reg.

don't know if 's safe to rev high!! without front reg.

Lynn E. Hanover

The point of the nomenclature comment was that the question was about a dry sump system with a wet sump picture. The nomen from the word is German for name.



I found a picture of the dry sump layout. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/Oil-System...=oiling+systems

Lynn E. Hanover

There was a lot more to that post but it vanished all except the above.



The scavenge lines should have a course screen type filter. The cooler(s) must be on the pressure side of the scavenge pumps. You must force oil through a cooler. They have so much drag that oil cannot be sucked through a cooler.



On the other hand, those two pumps can be used to force oil through a cooler then a filter, then back into the storage tank.



The pressure pump pulls oil from the bottom of the storage tank. It is presurized and sent to a remote filter assembly. I use a dual mount and two K&N spin on cans with a 550 pound burst. From the filters to the cooler and then to the engine. It will look obvious when you get it laid out.



The pump must be rigidly mounted. Peterson has the pulleys. Any power transmission store has the belts

cheap. Check the belt often for stone damage. Carry an extra belt with you. Most are Kevlar.



Lynn E. Hanover

12APPT

Thanks Lynn! As usual, you are extremely helpful. I have one final question: Where do the scavenge lines go? I am looking at the Full Race oil picture you made, and all is clear, minus where you get the scavenge from.