|
I thought I should post up some pictures of the 4 rotor engine I'm building.
I've been researching, figuring stuff out and doing a lot of CAD work on it for about a half year, but I've only begun to build it about a month ago or so. So far I've modified a few 13B n/a rotor housings, and I've been busy with the new eccentric shaft. When done this should be a peripheral ported n/a 4rotor. I started by modifying some rotor housings. I made a jig to position the housings in my milling machine and ported the exhausts: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-R...2/CIMG1200.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K...2/CIMG1202.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8...2/CIMG1207.JPG Next job was making some thickwalled stainless steel exhaust inserts. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6...2/CIMG1211.JPG The exhaust channels had to be milled out to accomodate for the inserts. The inserts are way larger than stock, because they have a more rectangular shape, are wider, and they are thicktubed so they will last under harsh conditions. Therefore there was a lot of milling to do. I found that after milling the exhaust channel would become dangerously thin, and could possibly crack, so I went a bit out of the box, and inserted entirely new channels to my likings. Kind of like when you add a peripheral port. This allowed me to get the port timings and shapes exactly the way I wanted them. I haven't made a lot of pictures from the new channels but you can see them in the following pictures. Here the housings were getting peripheral ports, first job was making some holes. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-W...4XQ/s912/1.jpg https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k...dQ4/s912/2.jpg https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8...J2I/s912/3.jpg After the hole was milled I finished the hole with a boring bar. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P...l1U/s912/4.jpg https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-L...2_A/s912/5.jpg I'm using stainless steel inserts made out of 304 roundbar https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-r...TCw/s912/6.jpg |
Finished inserts, I figured I might as well add injector bungs and a groove for an o-ring here since I'm planning on making a slide throttlebody that sits directly onto the housings.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-E...eq8/s912/7.JPG Here are the housings just before pressing in the inserts, they are a light pressfit. The waterchannel was "ported", the defcon will bond better this way. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o...gRI/s912/8.JPG With inserted inserts. I've put some devcon on the inserts before inserting, you can see some of it on the outside, this will help sealing. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-f...IRw/s912/9.JPG Inlets, Outlets, plain and simple, I still need to fill up those air-emission hole things, mill the exhaust flange surface flat, and clean everything up. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A...d4/s720/10.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y...gs%2525201.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-x...gs%2525202.jpg Here I was checking for any warpage of the housing, since they are heavily modified I was afraid that the material would disort a bit, but I couldn't find or measure any warping. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O...gs%2525203.jpg I also started on the eccentric shaft. I'm going to try making one myself, with my plain old manual lathe and mill. The design is a bit different from the regular designs. I've worked on this design for a few months, I've modelled and tested 4 different shafts on the computer, this design should be the strongest. It's also realatively easy to fabricate, and it's simpeler as it's a 2-piece design instead of a 3-piece. Only downside is that assembling the engine is more difficult. I basically have to assemble the rear engine first, with the rear iron, 1 regular intermediate iron and 1 modified intermediate iron. Then I have to assembly the front engine, with the front iron, and intermediate plate, with the hollow eccentric shaft piece, when that's done I should be able to join the 2 parts together by sliding the front part over the rear part. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1...ft%2525202.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-V...ft%2525201.jpg This is the start of the main eccentric shaft. I was boring centering holes here, which are to securely mount the roundbar in the lathe. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3...2/CIMG1260.JPG |
Roughturning the material, I started with a 125 pounds weighing slob of material. About 75 - 80% of the material ends up in the bin.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7...2/CIMG1264.JPG After an hour of turning https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6...2/CIMG1269.JPG I flipped the shaft around and started on the other side, after machining: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V...2/CIMG1272.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U...2/CIMG1277.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-W...2/CIMG1280.JPG This is where I am at the moment. Let me know if there are any questions |
impressive
|
Glad that you finally posted this John https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png
Lookes nice as I told you before, hope we will continue discuss on the mail https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png keep it up! |
I made some progress on the e-shaft today.
First thing I did was finish turning the straight part of the main e-shaft. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s...2/CIMG1298.JPG After that was done I started on the slip-on piece. After some turning, drilling and reaming it looked like this: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s...2/CIMG1292.JPG After more turning: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Q...2/CIMG1303.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m...2/CIMG1309.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-h...2/CIMG1311.JPG After turning the straight parts I needed to turn the eccentrical parts, where the rotors go. To do this the shaft needs to be placed in the lathe eccentrically. Special care needs to be taken that the shaft is positioned correctly, there are a number of ways to do this. I decided to mill small locating slots and fabricate jigs to place the shaft in the lathe. Placing the slip-on piece on the mill: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V...2/CIMG1312.JPG Then small keyways were milled Astute readers will notice that the bearing surface gets ruined this way. No worries, the entire shaft is machined bigger than the final dimension, this is needed because the shaft will warp because of heat treatment. Therefore I left 2mm's of material in all diameters. The slots are only 1.2mm deep, so when the shaft gets machined after heat treating these slots will be removed. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P...2/CIMG1315.JPG The e-shaft also needed these grooves, but the shaft is too long for my mill to machine both slots in one setup. Therefore I milled a flat surface and flipped the shaft over so it lays on the flat part. This way the indexing of both slots is identical. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s...2/CIMG1316.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-T...2/CIMG1319.JPG With machined keyways https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-H...2/CIMG1322.JPG Next job is fabricating jig's. It's a lot of work, but the ending result should be worth it. |
Excellent build! It's great to see what someone can do with some ingenuity and decent machine shop. I really like the exhaust inserts, but one question. What are you going to do for the primaries on the header? An oval to round transition out of the block and round primaries? I am planning a 13B peripheral port motor and like how clean your machining method was. Do you mind disclosing your port timing? Just curious.
|
Sure, These are the inside shapes and dimensions of my intake and exhaust ports:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-h...s850/Ports.jpg I drew in IC = 70° ABDC and IO = 80° BTDC to show that there isn't a lot of port area left when the rotor is beyond that timing. My port is perfectly roundshaped, a rectangular port with the same timings will act very different than this port. The reason I went with a round intake port is that it's a lot easier to fabricate, and should flow well in combination with a slide throttlebody mounted directly onto the housing. It's also puts less stress on the apex seals. I could've actually gone larger with the ports, I had more things to concider than just top end power alone so I settled on this. Nothing very special or anything, it's pretty similar to the ports that mazda have been using even before I was born. You should read SAE paper 900032, it has some good info on port timings. As for the exhaust port shape, I decided to create an exhaust port channel that is entirely straight, so the part that you can see at the exhaust flange surface on the rotor housing is exactly like the drawing above. The airflow is very turbulent when it exits the combustion chamber. The idea I had behind it is that a straight flowing exhaust path that doesn't change in shape or dimension is the quickest way to change a turbulent flow into a laminar flow. laminar flow is a lot better than turbulent flow in terms of flow. It also keeps the velocity of the gases high. If you search around on the forum's you'll find a clear explanation by rotarygod, which has done basically the same with his engine. Difference is he used a straight formed insert, I made an entirely new exhaust channel. Here is the rotor housing with the exhaust channel in CAD: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-F...st%2525201.JPG I'm going to do round primary's, Planning on using a short system with 44,3mm ID primary's (1,75" that is), and a 4-1 collector. The exhaust primary connection will probably look something like this (look at the light coloured dotted lines): https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v...9/primary1.jpg So basically I'll press a piece of pipe over a mould to form the ending into a wider and flatter shape, much like the exhaust channel shape, only a bit higher. This forms an anti-reversion lip, which should be good for performance. I've been doing the same thing to 2-strokes for ages. Flow should look something like this: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-m...ow%2525201.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V...ow%2525202.jpg Don't pay a huge deal of attention to the flow pictures, I calculated most of the needed variables to perform the simulation, but it's probably not completely accurate since the flow of gasses in a rotary engine is just much more complex than this. I havent taken the exact movement of the flamefront in account. This is just a simulation of a certain gas with a given temperature and mass flow moving to a point with enviromental pressure through a rotary engine. Still interesting I think. |
this is unreal thanks to both of you guys for sharing. looking forward to more.
|
Both? John is one person https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png
If you mean me, thats whats forum is for https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png So many more people can do it, and togheter we develope the best engine https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png |
I started on the parts I need to mount the e-shaft eccentrically in the lathe today.
Hope to get those done and get some more progress done on the e-shaft next weekend. Would be nice if I can get those bits heat treated soon. Also started on some intake manifold designing. I got some idea's I wanted to check out, so I started modelling everything. This isn't the entire intake system yet, I'll update this later. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1...4/Manifold.JPG |
The exhaust inserts are great! It should be fun to see how the final transitions out of the port and into the header turns out, going from oval to round. Want to make me some of those exhaust inserts for Christmas https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png
|
Originally Posted by Tegheim
(Post 850617)
Both? John is one person https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png
If you mean me, thats whats forum is for https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png So many more people can do it, and togheter we develope the best engine https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png |
Originally Posted by shainiac
(Post 850621)
The exhaust inserts are great! It should be fun to see how the final transitions out of the port and into the header turns out, going from oval to round. Want to make me some of those exhaust inserts for Christmas https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png
I'm sorry, I don't fabricate parts for others, I'm not a company or anything, just a hobbyist. Even if I made some inserts for you, making the inserts is a piece of cake, placing them in the housings isn't. The original channel is milled out, the shape of the new insert is milled out, so that it's a light pressfit, then the inserts were smeared with defcon and pressed in, then the stainless steel insert was very lightly tig welded to the housing liner, then everything was beveled, and after that was done I smoothed out the waterjacket using defcon. I'll see if I can post up a more detailed picture of the waterjackets. There is a lot more coolant flow area in the waterjacket than stock, this is also because of the length of the 4-rotor (I'm planning on a normal cooling system which enters and exits at the front of the engine), more area here means the water will cool down more slowly, I wouldn't do this on a regular 2-rotor.
Originally Posted by jwteknix
(Post 850629)
i meant both you and john. it is very nice of you guys to show the design and technology, used to make this. its not like everyones doing this stuff... i for one have never seen most of this stuff thank you guys
No problem, I've gotten a lot of usefull information and idea's from these forums, and I like reading about these sorts of builds, so least I can do is return the favour. |
Do you mind sharing your Solidworks files? I have a model that I dont think is quite accurate. I am trying to trace out different peripheral port timings relative to the housing/iron so I can just print out 17"x11"s and lay them between the iron and housing. If you are willing, please email them to adshain@indiana.edu
Thanks! |
Well, I'm not going to hand out these cad files to everyone, because a lot of work and time went into them.
I can help you out with your port-timing though. I've added a few solidworks files that can do what you want. It's not a complete engine in CAD, but it does what you want it to do. You set the eccentric shaft at the angle you want, and then you can either print it out on a 1:1 scale, or you can do like I did, measure the distance between the port and the flat bottom side of the housing, and use that dimension in the milling machine. You need the latest version of solidworks to open it, since that's the version I'm using. |
I made the jig's to position the eccentric shaft in the lathe today, which was a crappy job to do. The parts have to be really accurate, or else the stroke of the shaft or the 90° phasing will be off. I spend a lot of time making sure everything in order. After that was done I could start turning the eccentric bearing surfaces. I only had time left to do one, I'll machine some more tomorrow.
One eccentric shaft end goes here https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...2/CIMG1342.JPG Finally it's in https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_...2/CIMG1343.JPG Came out allright https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u...2/CIMG1352.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9...2/CIMG1357.JPG Short clip of the machining work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDCborFfCmU |
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0...2/CIMG1369.JPG
Did the rest. Next up is drilling some balancing holes, and then the shaft can go out for heat treatment. |
John.
GENIAAL !!! Dit had ik niet moeten zien... want nu begint het te kriebelen. 2 rotor turbo is leuk maar 4 rotor is ultiem! sorry guys for the language. |
Kom wel een keer langs als ie klaar is, ben een tijdje terug bij je langs geweest om ssr velgen op te halen.
|
The chassis, 2nd gen shell with Tein HA coilovers and SSR wheels:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Z...2/CIMG1536.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8...2/CIMG1541.JPG |
What transmission do you plan on running?
|
Very nice John!
|
Originally Posted by shainiac
(Post 850754)
What transmission do you plan on running?
Stock S4 TII tranny's, I've got a few of them. If I keep breaking them I'll look for alternatives but first things first. |
|
Whats years and model is it on the middle-plates?
|
The irons with the high ports look like FD REW, while the center plates with the high oil fillers look like S5 n/a.
|
almost right https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png , the outer ones and the middle one are indeed FD plates, the 2 center irons are S4 n/a.
I didn't have 2 more good FD plates lying around, and there isn't any real benefit for using them since I'm going peripheral port anyway. |
Originally Posted by John Huijben
(Post 850844)
almost right https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png , the outer ones and the middle one are indeed FD plates, the 2 center irons are S4 n/a.
I didn't have 2 more good FD plates lying around, and there isn't any real benefit for using them since I'm going peripheral port anyway. the lack of EGR passages is what threw me off, until I remembered that was just a US thing... |
I hope your still working on it.
|
You bet
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-N...varintake1.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-o...varintake2.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-X...52520gears.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-l...2/CIMG1664.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-f...2/CIMG1671.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C.../s1280/oil.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z...2/CIMG1678.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-L...2/CIMG1698.JPG |
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-E...2/CIMG1701.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-y...2/CIMG1714.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-D...2/DSC_0112.jpg https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k...2/DSC_0108.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q...2/CIMG0015.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-O...2/CIMG0010.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P...2/DSC_0132.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4...2/CIMG0007.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r...2/CIMG0009.JPG |
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A...2/CIMG0021.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x...2/CIMG0069.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V...2/CIMG0075.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u...2/CIMG0062.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y...2/CIMG0060.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3...2/CIMG0091.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...2/CIMG0093.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-o...2/CIMG0101.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I...2/CIMG0128.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O...2/CIMG0122.JPG |
Great work love the turbo reflection in the center plate
|
Re: 4 Rotor Build
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q...2/CIMG0129.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Y...252520Tube.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q...2/CIMG0164.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V...2/CIMG0172.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r...2/CIMG0156.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5...2/CIMG0181.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G...2/CIMG0217.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u...2/CIMG0202.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q...2/CIMG0224.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B...2/CIMG0231.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...2/CIMG0244.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-s...2/CIMG0248.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-z...ow%2525202.jpg |
Re: 4 Rotor Build
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M...2/CIMG0284.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6...2/CIMG0291.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d...2/CIMG0300.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e...2/CIMG0313.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-t...2/CIMG0311.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i...2/CIMG0310.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8...2/CIMG0315.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...2/CIMG0345.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l...2/CIMG0351.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h...2/CIMG0368.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-M...2/CIMG0373.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-f...2/CIMG0371.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...2/CIMG0425.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v...2/CIMG0475.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c...2/CIMG0472.JPG |
Re: 4 Rotor Build
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...2/CIMG0429.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X...2/CIMG0435.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-o...2/CIMG0436.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F...2/CIMG0448.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...2/CIMG0459.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-s...2/CIMG0461.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S...2/CIMG0486.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b...2/CIMG0490.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0...2/CIMG0493.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-L...2/CIMG0498.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F...80/Intake1.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-n...2/CIMG0505.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-e...2/CIMG0507.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6...2/CIMG0509.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...2/CIMG0511.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4...2/CIMG0525.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-A...2520Square.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-A...2/CIMG0534.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L...2/CIMG0539.JPG |
Re: 4 Rotor Build
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-h...2/CIMG0540.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...2/CIMG0546.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G...2/CIMG0549.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--...2/CIMG0553.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-h...2/CIMG0554.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-i...2/CIMG0563.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k...2/CIMG0576.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r...2/CIMG0584.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...2/CIMG0589.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x...2/CIMG0595.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q...2/CIMG0611.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Q...2/CIMG0604.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-P...2/CIMG0633.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V...2/CIMG0618.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G...2/CIMG0621.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...2/CIMG0635.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b...2/CIMG0649.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-z...2/CIMG0652.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-h...2/CIMG0655.JPG |
Re: 4 Rotor Build
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6...2/CIMG0667.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r...2/CIMG0681.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a...2/CIMG0696.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j...%2520plate.JPG https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0...2/CIMG0702.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-k...2/CIMG0708.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-L...2/CIMG0804.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u...2/CIMG0757.JPG https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5...2/CIMG0759.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...2/CIMG0764.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a...0Pan%25201.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P...0Pan%25202.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q...0Pan%25204.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P...0Pan%25203.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-u...0Pan%25205.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J...0/CIMG0814.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y...0/CIMG0818.JPG https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-D...0/CIMG0834.JPG https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...0/CIMG0835.JPG |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands