13b To Gm Auto Trans Adapter ?
12-20-2004, 08:01 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by ColinRX7' date='Jun 30 2004, 04:45 PM
a GM powerglide would make a great transmission for a drag car
12-20-2004, 08:22 AM
#12
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heretic,Dec 18 2004, 12:36 PM
The problem with using Chevy starters is that all GM products I am aware of mount the starter to the engine side of the flywheel - no starter mounts on the transmissions.
Wonder if it'd be possible to use the top mount starter and space it up to mate to a GM flexplate? There are two sizes to choose from, 153 tooth and 168 tooth.
Additional info, there are three different common GM bolt patterns. Chevy, used on the 2.5 four, the Chevy V8s, and the 90 degree Chevy V6s. BOP, used on Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac engines, as well as Cadillac engines. And then the Chevy 60 degree, which is used on 90% of the remaining engines introduced after 1980, mainly front-drive applications. There a couple oddballs in the mix but they are not common engines and none were rear drive.
The size of the task at hand tends to dull the mind. Once the pieces to be mated are placed together on the shop floor it seems more doable. First is the connection of the locating button on the torque converter to the rear of the crank. A short adaptor with on end pressed into the crank and the other bored to fit the button.
Check out the early Mazda flexplate to see if there is material to drill through to pick up the GM bolt holes in the torque converter. If not fill in the flex plate where needed. Use the small Mazda top starter.
Slide what you have together to determine how much space there is between the face of the bell housing and the back face of the rotary.
For an adapter with a small spacing, the steel plate works fine. For more spacing just 4 aluminum blocks is fine. Two of these blocks must pick up the engine dowels and accuratly transfer the centering data to the dowels on the transmission bell housing
If the bell housing is not removable, use a stripped casting to find the centering info as in the first post. This system is used to mount aircraft propeller speed reduction units to the rotary blocks and it works fine. Thought should be given to supporting the front of the trans and perhaps the engine mounts on the center iron would be better. The full weight of the trans in a bending load at this junction is poor design.
The GM 400 yoke is widely used in circle track racing and Colleman will make up an aluminum drive shaft of any description for under $250.00. They are works of art. A good drive line shop can mate the mazda companion flange to a SAE cross to get the rear end hooked up.
Shifting is with a cable so no problem there.
There you go. One day to figure it out. Two days to get it done and in the car for a trial fit. It takes three days to get the drive shaft out of Coleman.
Note the aluminum block spacers instead of a bell housing on this aircraft installation.
Lynn E. Hanover
The problem with using Chevy starters is that all GM products I am aware of mount the starter to the engine side of the flywheel - no starter mounts on the transmissions.
Wonder if it'd be possible to use the top mount starter and space it up to mate to a GM flexplate? There are two sizes to choose from, 153 tooth and 168 tooth.
Additional info, there are three different common GM bolt patterns. Chevy, used on the 2.5 four, the Chevy V8s, and the 90 degree Chevy V6s. BOP, used on Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac engines, as well as Cadillac engines. And then the Chevy 60 degree, which is used on 90% of the remaining engines introduced after 1980, mainly front-drive applications. There a couple oddballs in the mix but they are not common engines and none were rear drive.
The size of the task at hand tends to dull the mind. Once the pieces to be mated are placed together on the shop floor it seems more doable. First is the connection of the locating button on the torque converter to the rear of the crank. A short adaptor with on end pressed into the crank and the other bored to fit the button.
Check out the early Mazda flexplate to see if there is material to drill through to pick up the GM bolt holes in the torque converter. If not fill in the flex plate where needed. Use the small Mazda top starter.
Slide what you have together to determine how much space there is between the face of the bell housing and the back face of the rotary.
For an adapter with a small spacing, the steel plate works fine. For more spacing just 4 aluminum blocks is fine. Two of these blocks must pick up the engine dowels and accuratly transfer the centering data to the dowels on the transmission bell housing
If the bell housing is not removable, use a stripped casting to find the centering info as in the first post. This system is used to mount aircraft propeller speed reduction units to the rotary blocks and it works fine. Thought should be given to supporting the front of the trans and perhaps the engine mounts on the center iron would be better. The full weight of the trans in a bending load at this junction is poor design.
The GM 400 yoke is widely used in circle track racing and Colleman will make up an aluminum drive shaft of any description for under $250.00. They are works of art. A good drive line shop can mate the mazda companion flange to a SAE cross to get the rear end hooked up.
Shifting is with a cable so no problem there.
There you go. One day to figure it out. Two days to get it done and in the car for a trial fit. It takes three days to get the drive shaft out of Coleman.
Note the aluminum block spacers instead of a bell housing on this aircraft installation.
Lynn E. Hanover
12-20-2004, 09:11 PM
#13
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heretic,Dec 18 2004, 12:36 PM
The problem with using Chevy starters is that all GM products I am aware of mount the starter to the engine side of the flywheel - no starter mounts on the transmissions.
Wonder if it'd be possible to use the top mount starter and space it up to mate to a GM flexplate? There are two sizes to choose from, 153 tooth and 168 tooth.
Additional info, there are three different common GM bolt patterns. Chevy, used on the 2.5 four, the Chevy V8s, and the 90 degree Chevy V6s. BOP, used on Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac engines, as well as Cadillac engines. And then the Chevy 60 degree, which is used on 90% of the remaining engines introduced after 1980, mainly front-drive applications. There a couple oddballs in the mix but they are not common engines and none were rear drive.
If you use an aftermarket GM bellhousing you can get any starter location you can think of.
How about just using the RX-2 flexplate and the small top mount starter with no spacers at all? Just drill new bolt holes to match the Chevy converter.
We have a Chevy button flywheel bolted to the rear counterweight. So the centering land diameter on the counterweight is reduced to match the chevy center hole. The counterweight is drilled and tapped to match the Chevy bolt pattern. There you go. Chevy (Tilton) dual disc 5 1/2" clutch mounted on the back of a rotary. We have an after market starter ring, but you could bolt the whole mess over a stock RX-2 or -3 flexplate for a cheap ring gear.
Lynn E. Hanover
The problem with using Chevy starters is that all GM products I am aware of mount the starter to the engine side of the flywheel - no starter mounts on the transmissions.
Wonder if it'd be possible to use the top mount starter and space it up to mate to a GM flexplate? There are two sizes to choose from, 153 tooth and 168 tooth.
Additional info, there are three different common GM bolt patterns. Chevy, used on the 2.5 four, the Chevy V8s, and the 90 degree Chevy V6s. BOP, used on Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac engines, as well as Cadillac engines. And then the Chevy 60 degree, which is used on 90% of the remaining engines introduced after 1980, mainly front-drive applications. There a couple oddballs in the mix but they are not common engines and none were rear drive.
If you use an aftermarket GM bellhousing you can get any starter location you can think of.
How about just using the RX-2 flexplate and the small top mount starter with no spacers at all? Just drill new bolt holes to match the Chevy converter.
We have a Chevy button flywheel bolted to the rear counterweight. So the centering land diameter on the counterweight is reduced to match the chevy center hole. The counterweight is drilled and tapped to match the Chevy bolt pattern. There you go. Chevy (Tilton) dual disc 5 1/2" clutch mounted on the back of a rotary. We have an after market starter ring, but you could bolt the whole mess over a stock RX-2 or -3 flexplate for a cheap ring gear.
Lynn E. Hanover
12-20-2004, 09:42 PM
#15
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l8t apex,Dec 19 2004, 10:05 PM
What about old Rx2,3,4 bell housing welded to the Richmond?
Is it possible?
Anything is possible.
The RX stuff is a bit short. Almost anything you try to install will have an input shaft that is too long. But this is good, because you get to adjust by installing a spacer block or plate of some thickness to account for the extra distance.
Our other trans setup is the Saenz dog ring box from Argentina. You have one too?
Good design, no clutch shifting up or down. Pretty steep learning curve and the shock loads on the drive line are brutal. On down shifts you need to goose the throttle, when your mind is screaming brake harder you idiot and stay off of the throttle. Well no, you gun the power on down shifts. As the dog unhooks from the higher gear and moves through neutral, you have the throttle buried and the revs come up a bit in that instant in neutral and the engine revs high enough to (maybe) get closer to matching the lower gear you are selecting. But wheather you have matched it or not, it goes into that gear no matter what. Even if you didn't match the revs, even if it was two gears lower than you should have selected.............it goes in.
The Saenz also has a long input shaft (a good thing) so they mill the center out of an RX-3 bell housing. The RX has the bearing retainer and tube cast onto the bell housing and that must be removed. A hole is left that is concentric with the bearing retainer hole. A block of aluminum is face cut to leave a locating land for that hole. A through hole is bored for the input shaft. The back side of the block gets a locating hole that snug fits the bearing retainer on the Saenz. The block is bolted to the Saenz. The modified RX bell housing is bolted to the block, and there you are. A saenz fits into an RX-7. You could weld the whole mess together but you could not service the trans, and even if you could, it aint Kosher.
This is a poor picture of the Saenz in place.
Lynn E. Hanover
What about old Rx2,3,4 bell housing welded to the Richmond?
Is it possible?
Anything is possible.
The RX stuff is a bit short. Almost anything you try to install will have an input shaft that is too long. But this is good, because you get to adjust by installing a spacer block or plate of some thickness to account for the extra distance.
Our other trans setup is the Saenz dog ring box from Argentina. You have one too?
Good design, no clutch shifting up or down. Pretty steep learning curve and the shock loads on the drive line are brutal. On down shifts you need to goose the throttle, when your mind is screaming brake harder you idiot and stay off of the throttle. Well no, you gun the power on down shifts. As the dog unhooks from the higher gear and moves through neutral, you have the throttle buried and the revs come up a bit in that instant in neutral and the engine revs high enough to (maybe) get closer to matching the lower gear you are selecting. But wheather you have matched it or not, it goes into that gear no matter what. Even if you didn't match the revs, even if it was two gears lower than you should have selected.............it goes in.
The Saenz also has a long input shaft (a good thing) so they mill the center out of an RX-3 bell housing. The RX has the bearing retainer and tube cast onto the bell housing and that must be removed. A hole is left that is concentric with the bearing retainer hole. A block of aluminum is face cut to leave a locating land for that hole. A through hole is bored for the input shaft. The back side of the block gets a locating hole that snug fits the bearing retainer on the Saenz. The block is bolted to the Saenz. The modified RX bell housing is bolted to the block, and there you are. A saenz fits into an RX-7. You could weld the whole mess together but you could not service the trans, and even if you could, it aint Kosher.
This is a poor picture of the Saenz in place.
Lynn E. Hanover
12-29-2004, 02:24 PM
#17
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' date='Dec 20 2004, 07:42 PM
l8t apex,Dec 19 2004, 10:05 PM
What about old Rx2,3,4 bell housing welded to the Richmond?
Is it possible?
Anything is possible.
The RX stuff is a bit short. Almost anything you try to install will have an input shaft that is too long. But this is good, because you get to adjust by installing a spacer block or plate of some thickness to account for the extra distance.
Our other trans setup is the Saenz dog ring box from Argentina. You have one too?
Good design, no clutch shifting up or down. Pretty steep learning curve and the shock loads on the drive line are brutal. On down shifts you need to goose the throttle, when your mind is screaming brake harder you idiot and stay off of the throttle. Well no, you gun the power on down shifts. As the dog unhooks from the higher gear and moves through neutral, you have the throttle buried and the revs come up a bit in that instant in neutral and the engine revs high enough to (maybe) get closer to matching the lower gear you are selecting. But wheather you have matched it or not, it goes into that gear no matter what. Even if you didn't match the revs, even if it was two gears lower than you should have selected.............it goes in.
The Saenz also has a long input shaft (a good thing) so they mill the center out of an RX-3 bell housing. The RX has the bearing retainer and tube cast onto the bell housing and that must be removed. A hole is left that is concentric with the bearing retainer hole. A block of aluminum is face cut to leave a locating land for that hole. A through hole is bored for the input shaft. The back side of the block gets a locating hole that snug fits the bearing retainer on the Saenz. The block is bolted to the Saenz. The modified RX bell housing is bolted to the block, and there you are. A saenz fits into an RX-7. You could weld the whole mess together but you could not service the trans, and even if you could, it aint Kosher.
This is a poor picture of the Saenz in place.
Lynn E. Hanover
What about old Rx2,3,4 bell housing welded to the Richmond?
Is it possible?
Anything is possible.
The RX stuff is a bit short. Almost anything you try to install will have an input shaft that is too long. But this is good, because you get to adjust by installing a spacer block or plate of some thickness to account for the extra distance.
Our other trans setup is the Saenz dog ring box from Argentina. You have one too?
Good design, no clutch shifting up or down. Pretty steep learning curve and the shock loads on the drive line are brutal. On down shifts you need to goose the throttle, when your mind is screaming brake harder you idiot and stay off of the throttle. Well no, you gun the power on down shifts. As the dog unhooks from the higher gear and moves through neutral, you have the throttle buried and the revs come up a bit in that instant in neutral and the engine revs high enough to (maybe) get closer to matching the lower gear you are selecting. But wheather you have matched it or not, it goes into that gear no matter what. Even if you didn't match the revs, even if it was two gears lower than you should have selected.............it goes in.
The Saenz also has a long input shaft (a good thing) so they mill the center out of an RX-3 bell housing. The RX has the bearing retainer and tube cast onto the bell housing and that must be removed. A hole is left that is concentric with the bearing retainer hole. A block of aluminum is face cut to leave a locating land for that hole. A through hole is bored for the input shaft. The back side of the block gets a locating hole that snug fits the bearing retainer on the Saenz. The block is bolted to the Saenz. The modified RX bell housing is bolted to the block, and there you are. A saenz fits into an RX-7. You could weld the whole mess together but you could not service the trans, and even if you could, it aint Kosher.
This is a poor picture of the Saenz in place.
Lynn E. Hanover
the fd (93-02) bellhousings are about 1-2" deeper than the older bellhousings, to make room for the pull type clutch, this might be a better choice than the older bellhousings?
01-02-2005, 04:55 PM
#19
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 524
Originally Posted by bill shurvinton' date='Jan 2 2005, 01:55 PM
Just discovered a cheap source of GM trans here in the UK and this thread has got me thinking. Just one question...What are the issues with spinning a tranny at 9000 that was dessigned for a V8 with a 4500RPM redline?
What transmission are you thinking of using?
I can't think of any issues directly related to high RPM. Not that there would be any, many American performance engines' powerbands stretched up to 7,000-7,500 in stock form, and modified, revving into the five digits range is not uncommon in drag racing.
You don't know painful until you hear an old Ford 221 bang shifting at 11,000!
01-02-2005, 06:26 PM
#20
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by heretic' date='Jan 2 2005, 02:55 PM
What transmission are you thinking of using?
I can't think of any issues directly related to high RPM. Not that there would be any, many American performance engines' powerbands stretched up to 7,000-7,500 in stock form, and modified, revving into the five digits range is not uncommon in drag racing.
You don't know painful until you hear an old Ford 221 bang shifting at 11,000!
I can't think of any issues directly related to high RPM. Not that there would be any, many American performance engines' powerbands stretched up to 7,000-7,500 in stock form, and modified, revving into the five digits range is not uncommon in drag racing.
You don't know painful until you hear an old Ford 221 bang shifting at 11,000!
Prolly a TH350, unless I can find a 200R4. The guy ships in 350s and similar for cobra replicas and so for each engine that comes in he ends up with a free tranny. Early days yet as I'm still scheming waht to put it in.
I only know about manual boxes, where you really need roller bearings to do big RPM.