Unfortunately on an individual basis thats all one has control over,is their own personal debt. The politicians will only do what is politically trendy, not what is fiscally prudent. Just because the government and the business world continues to dig the hole, doesnt mean Joe public should do the same thing either. Personal financial positioning will go alot farther for survival than hoping government will do the right the thing, and right now every government is taking on debt so it doesn't matter where you live.

 

it does make you wonder though- you want stimulus? stop giving the money to huge corporations who have no accountability for where the money is going, give it to ME, give me $50k, let ME buy a new car, or pay my bills, or pay down my mortgage, then I might see direct results..... I know thats a pipe dream but its my dream.

 

You see that's where you're wrong, you paying off your bills or paying down your mortgage or not continuing to go in debt are the WORST things you can do in the eyes of lenders, why? There are over 600 Trillion dollars worth of derivatives in teh system, more then the world GDP, the majority of these derivatives originate from debt, your 500,000 mortgage prolly works into 2 or 3 million in derivatives, so you pay the bank $75,000, in theory they owe 300,000 on that 75k that they have to come up with. All this was well and good when they were making a fortune investing that derivative money in profitable investments, but when things started to fall apart, they lost not only their profits from that derivative money, but they lost parlayed loan. This is why although there are thousands upon thousands of foreclosures you don't see near that many for sale, this is due to the fact that the bank has that home on their books as a $500,000 asset, if they turn around and sell it for what it's worth they sell it for say $150,000, suddenly that bank that we think is so solvent appears to be standing on quicksand. The gov't wants you take on more debt, plain and simple. Debt fuels our current system, debt is the core of our economy it is involved in EVERY aspect and that is why you constantly hear them talking about "getting the credit markets moving again" what they are really talking about is getting the shell game moving again.



Giving the money directly to you us Rob doesn't help anything, that's a Keynesian theory and to put is bluntly it doesn't work. In most cases that money you get is eaten up by inflation, if you use it to pay off debt or you put it in your savings you make the problem even worse, now you've not only increased our debt, but you've decreased the very thing that makes the system function.... credit. what you have to realize is we no longer have any commodity to back our dollars, therefor we take additional debt (gee that's like credit isn't it?) for every dollar we print and trust me we are printing A LOT. Increasing our debt is not the answer, it's the opposite of the answer, the reality of it is the money shouldn't go to anyone, it should never printed and the debt should never be created, the entities that are begging for this money should go bankrupt and the creditors that loaned them money should go bankrupt. Bailing out non viable businesses like GM and Chrysler is a waste, what people can't seem to grasp is that giving banks trillions, giving auto manufacturer billions is a simple transfer of debt, a transfer from the lenders of the money to GM and Chrysler to the American people, that is in fact my point Max, you can be as fiscally responsible as you want, the gov't has already strapped you with what probably amounts to close to 100,000 dollars, thats not just taxpayers that's every man woman and child in america that is breathing right now and you are gonna be on the hook for that money, look at the tax rate americans paid after the first depression, after WW2, there will come a time when we the people will be responsible to pay this debt, it's not internal it's debt to China, it's debt owed to nations that eventually require repayment, if nothing else they require that the interest be paid on their money and we may soon be unable to make those payments.

 

maybe im just too much of a simple mind, but when I see billions going to corporations that dont even have to account for what the money is being used for, I feel some money in my pocket would do me better, let me buy some goods and do something with the money, support my local business that is hurting and laying people off.

 

Again, look at it this way. If I hand you $10 and say you owe me $10 are you $10 richer then you were a few minutes ago? If you go spend that money elsewhere and help the local guy out you STILL owe me $10. Now let's say i loan you $10 and tell you that in 90 days you pay me $12, you are now $2 poorer and that is how the USA issues debt, through tbills, treasure bills that require interest payments. Are people not grasping that this 10 trillion + national debt will have to paid back? Are people not grasping that America has become the largest debtor nation the world has ever seen and we the people are the ones responsible to pay that money back? We will have to pay it back and it will be paid back through taxes, so the conversation you should be having is how the **** do we get these ******** to stop taking on more debt, not "how do I get mine", it must be stopped, we cannot fix credit problems by taking on more debt, plain and simple. WE WILL BE REQUIRED TO PAY THIS MONEY BACK.



You see the problem as billions of dollars going to banks and you aren't getting any of it, i see the problem as billions of dollars being created on debt and no matter who gets it, i am on the hook to pay it back.

 

pay the money back, now thats some funny ****.



we aint getting the money back, there is not even real money to back any of this up.



so send me a check, not a loan, for some money and let me do something with it!

 

That's my point, that check IS A LOAN, every dollar we print is a loan, it originates from debt that must be repaid. We have a 10 trillion dollar debt and increasing that debt only increases the future tax burden to you and I. What you are saying is you'd rather have $500 now and pay it back PLUS interest in the form of taxes??? So you would rather a 50%, 60% tax rate to pay back that debt so you can have your $500 now to save the local business that will inevitably go broke when their tax burden is increased.



Basically what you are saying is the best way to help a guy who can't pay his credit card bills is give him another credit card, then he can use that one to pay the other cards for a few months and when he maxes that one paying the others you want to give him another card?



This is not "fake" debt, the american people are on the hook for EVERY dollar we print, every stimulus, every bail out it's all going to be repaid by the tax payer, i can see that you don't believe that and that's neato, but don't come complaining to everyone when you start paying 80% of your money in taxes, you think your taxes are insane now, give it a few years, but hey I am sure you will be more then happy to pay it since you can talk about that day you helped the now tax burdened bankrupt local businessman out with your $500 stimulus check right?



It absolutely phenomenal to me that people think we can continue at this pace, that people honestly believe that the debt is just some fake number that means nothing. Oh I don't worry about that, my government will take care of it, it's just 10 trillion we can print some money off and repay that or something I don't care.

 

all im saying is that money in the hands of the people seem like it would do us more good, its not trusting big business and big government, im sure the fat cat **********ers are coming out of this with full pockets while the rest of us suck wind.



have you tried to get any money lately? I have a SBA government loan on my shop, the rate is 2 3/4 over prime, so right now its pretty good because rates are down, but not even 2 years ago my rate was 10 3/4, so my payment on my shop has come down almost $2000 in that time.



So I figure let me try to refinance and lock a decent rate in so that in case 2 years from now the rate might be 14%, no bank will touch the loan, EVEN THE BANK THAT HOLDS THE LOAN NOW!



I pay all my payments on time, I carry VERY little debt, I have no bad debt, no charge offs, I show responsible practices by paying all my suppliers and subs on time with no judgements against me, so why wont they help me out? I employ people, pay my taxes, im ******* entitled to some of this **** aint I?



Or do I have to be behind on my mortgage for 6 months before I see any help? Not pay my sales tax? Is that the way it is these days? No help for the responsible people, only help the ones who got themselves into a mess?



so yeah- if putting country into deeper debt helps me- then I want some of it directly, I would rather pay my own debt off then help big corporations who fucked themselves by creating this artificial economy bubble they lived in.

 

Thanks for the posts, I am financially inept in terms of the monetary system at that level. As for the stimulus I agree giving away raw cash is not the answer, your government is indebting you to stimulate the economy in other countries simply due to the global realities of consumer good manufacturing. I am more in favour of person or small business tax cuts aimed at the middle class, at least some of the money produced at those leveles can be used to pay down personal debt while not dragging the country into a deeper whole. Some people will still buy offshore goods, sending some money over there, but I feel with the pessimistic outlook, it may smarten people up with what they do with the extra cash from less taxation

 

There's been no help even for those behind, GW had a mortgage rescue plan, not one bank used it to help their customer, again it all goes back to the idea that reducing ones loan helps the bank and it simply does not, reducing the loan lessens the assets they use to borrow and lend and lend and borrow, they don't want your house or anyone elses house being reduced on their balance sheet, plain and simple. NO ONE is getting help except for the "too big to fail" paper rich ******** that the checks are being written to. Won't take you long to look into the mortgage relief that's been offered, also won't take you long to find out it never got used, never got handed out it was merely Lip Service, a way of getting the masses behind the idea of taking on more debt to help themselves out. I keep hearing "well the banks are getting millions, where's my bailout" when the conversation that should be taking place is "these ******** are burdening me with debt to bail out the bank and they need to be hauled off the hill in shackles". What is wrong with Americans? Have we become so used to being raped by politicians that we would rather just become part of the problem (cashing that stimulus check) then becoming angry at the very people burdening us with trillions of dollars in debt? Have we come to the point where we would rather "seal the deal" and enjoy a few bucks now if it means the total destructions of our nations economy, the total destruction of our country? Ask not what you can do for your country, but ask where the **** my check is right?



I know i am becoming redundant, but this keynesian logic of taking on debt to rain dollars from the sky is WRONG, it's wrong if you give it to the banks, it's wrong if you give it to me, it's wrong if it's given to you. You are more then happy to take and cash that check now, but I will without a doubt guarantee you when you are paying that back in taxes 10 fold to the tune of 80 or 90% effective tax rate you will pissed off then. Again let me repeat YOU WILL BE BURDENED WITH THIS DEBT, so think about this for a minute, if you take a loan out from the bank do you pay them back the amount of the loan? Or do you pay them back 5%, 10%, 15% of the value of the loan? When the gov't prints money and issues tbills for that money, they have to pay that money back plus interest..... now where does the federal gov't get it's money from??? HMMMMM, do they sell anything? Do they produce anything? Where do they get money??? FROM YOU, PLUS INTEREST. Under NO circumstances should we be issuing debt to hand out money, it will be paid back through taxes and as much as that money might help you now, it will DESTROY you when you are taxed to pay it back, businesses cannot operate with a 90% effective tax rate, the middle class cannot survive on a 90% tax rate and where do they go when they need more tax money.... businesses and middle class, doesn't take much to figure out the track record on that.



I don't feel anyone is entitled to it, I don't feel the money should be created in the first place, just keep in mind that money you are entitled too comes with a price a very large price. A price that will crush small businesses and the middle class with taxes, whatever it does for you now will be completely unraveled by a tax burden later.