inanimate_object

I think you kind of missed my point, IMO it's more the attitude towards guns than anything that seems to be causing problems, it was really just a suggestion because it's pretty obvious there isn't a simple solution. I'd agree that criminals are the main cause of gun problems, so how do you apply the law to the outlaws? The best I can come up with is what we have here in Ireland, If they don't expect to be up against a gun then they won't think they need one. That's where I was coming from with the no guns in public idea - not ideal but I don't think you'll find a solution that is. Just on this subject, I assume the licence to carry a gun in public isn't a licence to kill, so what exactly is the point of having it?



Guns are not safe, you're one of those people who think people kill people not guns? Well if those people didn't have guns all they'd be doing is flexing their index finger at people



Mark

inanimate_object

Yayer, I'm not depriving you of your right to have guns, I am a bit confused why you would need to take one shopping, noone is going to come up to you and shoot you out of the blue, the worst that could happen is you lose $100 or whatever's in your wallet. If you pulled a gun back at the person chances are you're gonna get shot or end up in jail for shooting them. Freedom does not necessarily have to equal being able to carry lethal weapons 24/7.



And for what it's worth we have 3 regularly used guns in the house, I grew up with them so I know exactly where you're coming from.



Mark

yayer

Actually they'd be stabbing or suffocating or beating people to death. Back to my stats, the homicide per capita rate was much higher before guns.



I'd say that the way to address criminals directly is to stop them from becoming so in the first place. If we can focus on limiting common factors that shape common criminals.. then criminals would not be so common. At least, that's my theory.



The point of allowing the people to carry a gun in public is to match any threat to the streets with good minds and good shots to criminal minds and psychopathic killers. On an individual basis, the point is to protect myself from the consequences of any unfortunate event that might descend upon me while I'm out and about.



You're right, it may or may not be a good idea to flex your firepower on a 'harmless' offender, and I think that's something we'd like to leave to the discretion of the offended (with whom we relate).

inanimate_object

[quote name='yayer' date='Jul 30 2005, 10:12 PM']Actually they'd be stabbing or suffocating or beating people to death. Back to my stats, the homicide per capita rate was much higher before guns.


[/quote]

You have to be pretty messed up in the head to stab someone, with a gun it's point and click.



Mark

yayer

Ah, so your argument is that guns make it too easy to kill someone. I can dig it, but I don't think that's the problem. I think it's the people who'd take murder into consideration in the first place we should talk about, not the law-abiding owners and carriers.

inanimate_object

Really we're on the same track here, my point is that all it takes for a law-abiding carrier to become a criminal is one tug on a little trigger. Now that's not to say you're all criminals in the making - far from it, like all these things it's a minority that sours it for everyone, but maybe with guns it's a bit too easy for this to happen with a rush of blood to the head.



Mark

89 Rag

A cheesy bumper sticker sums this discussion up...



if you outlaw firearms, only outlaws will have them.

Dragon

All it takes is a drunk to jump in his car and kill your family on the way home from the bar to become a criminal. It's not that hard to do the wrong thing. There was a guy in Tokyo a few months back that decided while driving home from a typical day in the office how many people he could kill with his car. So he floored it and drove up on to the side walk in to a crowd of pedestrians. He killed a few and messed up a whole bunch more but you don't see anyone trying to ban the automobile.



Another point I'd like to make is that people who go threw the whole legal process of taking classes, filling out forms etc to get a concealed weapons permit are usually not the type of people who will draw their weapon just because they got pissed off at somebody.

Edna

People who are going to kill someone don't need a gun to do it. You can kill someone with anything.

Turbomark7

Lawful gun ownership for defense and protection is a concept that socialist societies abhor.



A dozen or so years ago, a Ted al-Kennedy bodyguard was arrested for attempting to board an aircraft with two Beretta M92s and an UZI on his person for no good reason. The most vocal anti-gunners tend to be well-armed



No matter, i-o is over there and I have AR15 x3, AR180 x2, M1, M1 Carbine x3, M1A-NM-E2, SR25, FAL x5, AK47 M78, Hakim, MAS 36/51, MAS 49/56, Enfield No.4 MK1 and MK2, 10/22, HP, G19, Colt CCO and Delta Elite and Target Model and Woodsman Target, SIG 220 and 229, Beretta 950 and 21A, H&R 999, HiSTD M107 Match, M500, SW 49 and 60 x2 and 686. Haven't had to shoot anyone, yet.



My FD with 400 WHP is too deadly for you, too. Have fun in crime-free, murder-free, felony-free Ireland and UK.