Gun Fans
07-23-2005, 09:36 AM
#91
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2,871
[quote name='1988RedT2' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:28 AM']I must take vigorous exception to the statement that guns are solely used to kill people. They are tools used for hunting, recreation, and self-preservation. A criminal will most often avoid confrontation with a victim that he knows to be armed, and in that sense firearms are a very powerful deterrent to violence. I own several firearms and I certainly didn't buy them for the sole purpose of killing people. 
How often does it have to be said? The solution to gun violence in the US is to put the offenders in jail. And to keep them there. If the majority of gun violence is committed by repeat offenders, then it makes sense to me to eliminate the offenders.
The problem of gun violence in the US is not simply the result of gun laws. There are a variety of societal issues including poverty, drugs, and ignorance that entice some people into a life of crime. Making guns go away won't address these issues and it won't solve the problem of violent crime.
[/quote]
You still didn't read what I said, and Sweet7 misunderstood. I have never said "ALL GUNS ARE BAD!!!" like the sky was falling.
A 9mm and a 5.56mm FMJ round are ILLEGAL for hunting. (at least anywhere that has humane hunting laws) They are TOO SMALL. A 5.56mm FMJ is designed to INJURE, not kill, because and injured soldier requires 1 or 2 other soldiers to carry him away. So why do people keep saying they use them for hunting? 55 grain hollowtips for .223 (the heaviest I've seen for them) shatter when they hit a 1lb gopher or a 20lb coyote, I wouldn't WANT to use them for self defense.
You realize the guy I used as an example has pretty good qualifications too, right?
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/03/29/profile.mcveigh/
How often does it have to be said? The solution to gun violence in the US is to put the offenders in jail. And to keep them there. If the majority of gun violence is committed by repeat offenders, then it makes sense to me to eliminate the offenders.
The problem of gun violence in the US is not simply the result of gun laws. There are a variety of societal issues including poverty, drugs, and ignorance that entice some people into a life of crime. Making guns go away won't address these issues and it won't solve the problem of violent crime.
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You still didn't read what I said, and Sweet7 misunderstood. I have never said "ALL GUNS ARE BAD!!!" like the sky was falling.
A 9mm and a 5.56mm FMJ round are ILLEGAL for hunting. (at least anywhere that has humane hunting laws) They are TOO SMALL. A 5.56mm FMJ is designed to INJURE, not kill, because and injured soldier requires 1 or 2 other soldiers to carry him away. So why do people keep saying they use them for hunting? 55 grain hollowtips for .223 (the heaviest I've seen for them) shatter when they hit a 1lb gopher or a 20lb coyote, I wouldn't WANT to use them for self defense.
I'm 21 years old. A qualified marksman with a pistol, rifle, and machine gun. Also a graduate of the Army's Sniper school at Ft. Benning, GA and a graduate of numerous CQB and tactical shooting schools througout this country.
Heres the question, should I get special treatment because I obviously know how to handle a weapon? Just because I'm trained to wield it? Or should someone with my credentials have to jump through six-million hoops to be able to buy/own/carry a weapon?
Heres the question, should I get special treatment because I obviously know how to handle a weapon? Just because I'm trained to wield it? Or should someone with my credentials have to jump through six-million hoops to be able to buy/own/carry a weapon?
You realize the guy I used as an example has pretty good qualifications too, right?
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/03/29/profile.mcveigh/
07-23-2005, 09:41 AM
#92
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bayou-self Louisiana
Posts: 947
We cant stop illegals and we cant stop gangs and drugs and we cant stop terrorism.
Those who to do this will. Only those who care, will follow the laws and those who commit crime or intend to , will use the same mind set to get guns. We cant controle human beings comming over open land and were supposed to controle millions of gun parts? Dont tilt the playing field more to the criminal by taking away any possible equalizer honest citizens currently have.
In Louisiana you CAN shoot someone in your yard and if someone comes to your car (outside). Car jacking asses can get wiped...so can a window washer ( JK) and tresspasser get smoked.
Dont preach to thoe quior about gun controle...wrong audience. Go talk to the drug dealors/users .They are the ones you have issues with.
BTW...go with out a gun ,with one hand in your pocket and the other one making a piece sign.
Those who to do this will. Only those who care, will follow the laws and those who commit crime or intend to , will use the same mind set to get guns. We cant controle human beings comming over open land and were supposed to controle millions of gun parts? Dont tilt the playing field more to the criminal by taking away any possible equalizer honest citizens currently have.
In Louisiana you CAN shoot someone in your yard and if someone comes to your car (outside). Car jacking asses can get wiped...so can a window washer ( JK) and tresspasser get smoked.
Dont preach to thoe quior about gun controle...wrong audience. Go talk to the drug dealors/users .They are the ones you have issues with.
BTW...go with out a gun ,with one hand in your pocket and the other one making a piece sign.
07-23-2005, 09:42 AM
#93
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Close enough to annoy you.
Posts: 1,381
[quote name='TYSON' date='Jul 22 2005, 09:38 PM']Please point out which one of these awful items' sole purpose is to kill people or practice killing people.
And don't try to tell me you can use a 9mm or a 5.56mm FMJ round to hunt.
Then go tell the kid locked in the Lexan box at a 24hr gas station that he lives in freedom.
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You can hunt with any of those if you wish to but there are more efficent calibers to use. Of course if we're going to base gun sales and banning weapons on those then sooner or later all of them will be gone. Why? Because if you ask 20 gun owners what the best caliber for hunting whatever animal is you're going to get different answers and might just cause a minor war.
Last I checked I've never seen a gun jump up off a table and shoot someone. You of course missed the point about flies and ****. Way too many flies out there.
Purpose of a gun is not to kill someone it's to protect yourself. If that requires that you end the life of someone who obviously cares nothing for yours then offhand I'd say it's their problem.
Law. n. 1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
Criminal n 1. Someone who breaks laws.
Gun Law: Keeps you from having guns if you're a law abiding citizen.
Criminals don't follow laws.
Gee whiz Mr. Rogers I don't think criminals are going to let gun laws stop them! Wow wee I lurneded something!
And don't try to tell me you can use a 9mm or a 5.56mm FMJ round to hunt.
Then go tell the kid locked in the Lexan box at a 24hr gas station that he lives in freedom.
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You can hunt with any of those if you wish to but there are more efficent calibers to use. Of course if we're going to base gun sales and banning weapons on those then sooner or later all of them will be gone. Why? Because if you ask 20 gun owners what the best caliber for hunting whatever animal is you're going to get different answers and might just cause a minor war.
Last I checked I've never seen a gun jump up off a table and shoot someone. You of course missed the point about flies and ****. Way too many flies out there.
Purpose of a gun is not to kill someone it's to protect yourself. If that requires that you end the life of someone who obviously cares nothing for yours then offhand I'd say it's their problem.
Law. n. 1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
Criminal n 1. Someone who breaks laws.
Gun Law: Keeps you from having guns if you're a law abiding citizen.
Criminals don't follow laws.
Gee whiz Mr. Rogers I don't think criminals are going to let gun laws stop them! Wow wee I lurneded something!
07-23-2005, 10:16 AM
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2,871
[quote name='Rotarydragon' date='Jul 23 2005, 10:42 AM']You can hunt with any of those if you wish to but there are more efficent calibers to use. Of course if we're going to base gun sales and banning weapons on those then sooner or later all of them will be gone. Why? Because if you ask 20 gun owners what the best caliber for hunting whatever animal is you're going to get different answers and might just cause a minor war.
Last I checked I've never seen a gun jump up off a table and shoot someone. You of course missed the point about flies and ****. Way too many flies out there.
Purpose of a gun is not to kill someone it's to protect yourself. If that requires that you end the life of someone who obviously cares nothing for yours then offhand I'd say it's their problem.
Law. n. 1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
Criminal n 1. Someone who breaks laws.
Gun Law: Keeps you from having guns if you're a law abiding citizen.
Criminals don't follow laws.
Gee whiz Mr. Rogers I don't think criminals are going to let gun laws stop them! Wow wee I lurneded something!
[/quote]
Your theory on why violent crime seem to differ by a 10:1 ratio minimum between major cities in your country and major cities in our country then?
PS We have poverty, drugs and ignorance here too.
Last I checked I've never seen a gun jump up off a table and shoot someone. You of course missed the point about flies and ****. Way too many flies out there.
Purpose of a gun is not to kill someone it's to protect yourself. If that requires that you end the life of someone who obviously cares nothing for yours then offhand I'd say it's their problem.
Law. n. 1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
Criminal n 1. Someone who breaks laws.
Gun Law: Keeps you from having guns if you're a law abiding citizen.
Criminals don't follow laws.
Gee whiz Mr. Rogers I don't think criminals are going to let gun laws stop them! Wow wee I lurneded something!
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Your theory on why violent crime seem to differ by a 10:1 ratio minimum between major cities in your country and major cities in our country then?
PS We have poverty, drugs and ignorance here too.
07-23-2005, 12:58 PM
#96
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Loss Vaygus, NV
Posts: 165
So I was browsing the US Department of Justice this morning.....
So, in the process of denying 80 million law-abiding citizens what they feel are their rights to own a gun, we would have to leave 80% of gun toting criminals alone because they buy guns through an un-policeable source.
Here's the link, should you want to broaden your horizons a little.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
Here's the link, should you want to broaden your horizons a little.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
07-23-2005, 01:11 PM
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2,871
[quote name='SilverSeven' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:58 PM']So I was browsing the US Department of Justice this morning.....
So, in the process of denying 80 million law-abiding citizens what they feel are their rights to own a gun, we would have to leave 80% of gun toting criminals alone because they buy guns through an un-policeable source.
Here's the link, should you want to broaden your horizons a little.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
[/quote]
So basically these "law-abiding" citizens are buying guns legally and selling them illegally to criminals? Sounds about right. If family and friends of criminals did not have easy access to weapons neither would the criminal they gave it to.
Be interesting to know how many weapons are still in the possession of the person who filled out the forms. Somehow I doubt those "illegal means" are by breaking in to the armory at a military base or police station.
So, in the process of denying 80 million law-abiding citizens what they feel are their rights to own a gun, we would have to leave 80% of gun toting criminals alone because they buy guns through an un-policeable source.
Here's the link, should you want to broaden your horizons a little.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
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So basically these "law-abiding" citizens are buying guns legally and selling them illegally to criminals? Sounds about right. If family and friends of criminals did not have easy access to weapons neither would the criminal they gave it to.
Be interesting to know how many weapons are still in the possession of the person who filled out the forms. Somehow I doubt those "illegal means" are by breaking in to the armory at a military base or police station.
07-23-2005, 02:38 PM
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Loss Vaygus, NV
Posts: 165
[quote name='TYSON' date='Jul 23 2005, 10:11 AM']So basically these "law-abiding" citizens are buying guns legally and selling them illegally to criminals? Sounds about right. If family and friends of criminals did not have easy access to weapons neither would the criminal they gave it to.
Be interesting to know how many weapons are still in the possession of the person who filled out the forms. Somehow I doubt those "illegal means" are by breaking in to the armory at a military base or police station.
[/quote]
Illegal means could also include buying them from a fence who got them from someone who did steal them from a govt organization or buying from a supplier from out of the country.
Option One. Take everyone's guns away.
Impossible, there are too many people who feel they have the right to own them who will not for any reason give them up. If you tried to do that you couldn't make a distinction between any guns because one they all have the same capabilities to be used violently. So you would have to take away everything from the genuine hunting rifle that in some places does actually provide food for families, and you'd have to take antique family heirlooms that may or may not have ever been used in the last 100 years, and you'd have to take single shot .22 target pistols (despite that fact that they are about as likely to cause widespread mayhem as a stiff wind), and you'd have to take personal gun from law enforcement officers, because if they're not checked in every night, then they might possibly get into the hands of criminals. I don't see that happening, ever.
Laws don't stop criminals. Laws restrict everyone else but the criminals. Sure you can make it harder for them, but banning private ownership will not make America the Urban Utopia that people think it will. Criminals will still have guns even if it's in reduced numbers, violent crimes commited with guns will still happen. But 80 million people will be deprived of either food, sport, or even just the freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
By '94, 223,000,000 guns had been manufactured for domestic use or imported into the US. That same year, 83,000 guns were identified as being used to commit a violent crime. You would think that would dispell the myth that guns are only used to hurt people, yet to some people that means we should take them all away, one bad seed ruins the whole apple. That would be like expelling an entire highschool of kids because one kid got in a fight.
If you all are so legislation happy, why not try to come up with something that a) is enforcable, and b) punishes the criminals rather than punishing everyone.
Why not push a law that requires a mandatory life sentence for any violent crime commited with a gun, or even for commiting a crime while in possession of a gun, even if it wasn't used in the crime. That would help get repeat offenders off of the streets, it would be a deterrent for the rather low percentage of criminals who do consider the consequences before acting, and best of all, it wouldn't do anything to the law-abiding citizens, because if they are using their guns in a completely legal fashion, they would have nothing to worry about.
Be interesting to know how many weapons are still in the possession of the person who filled out the forms. Somehow I doubt those "illegal means" are by breaking in to the armory at a military base or police station.
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Illegal means could also include buying them from a fence who got them from someone who did steal them from a govt organization or buying from a supplier from out of the country.
Option One. Take everyone's guns away.
Impossible, there are too many people who feel they have the right to own them who will not for any reason give them up. If you tried to do that you couldn't make a distinction between any guns because one they all have the same capabilities to be used violently. So you would have to take away everything from the genuine hunting rifle that in some places does actually provide food for families, and you'd have to take antique family heirlooms that may or may not have ever been used in the last 100 years, and you'd have to take single shot .22 target pistols (despite that fact that they are about as likely to cause widespread mayhem as a stiff wind), and you'd have to take personal gun from law enforcement officers, because if they're not checked in every night, then they might possibly get into the hands of criminals. I don't see that happening, ever.
Laws don't stop criminals. Laws restrict everyone else but the criminals. Sure you can make it harder for them, but banning private ownership will not make America the Urban Utopia that people think it will. Criminals will still have guns even if it's in reduced numbers, violent crimes commited with guns will still happen. But 80 million people will be deprived of either food, sport, or even just the freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
By '94, 223,000,000 guns had been manufactured for domestic use or imported into the US. That same year, 83,000 guns were identified as being used to commit a violent crime. You would think that would dispell the myth that guns are only used to hurt people, yet to some people that means we should take them all away, one bad seed ruins the whole apple. That would be like expelling an entire highschool of kids because one kid got in a fight.
If you all are so legislation happy, why not try to come up with something that a) is enforcable, and b) punishes the criminals rather than punishing everyone.
Why not push a law that requires a mandatory life sentence for any violent crime commited with a gun, or even for commiting a crime while in possession of a gun, even if it wasn't used in the crime. That would help get repeat offenders off of the streets, it would be a deterrent for the rather low percentage of criminals who do consider the consequences before acting, and best of all, it wouldn't do anything to the law-abiding citizens, because if they are using their guns in a completely legal fashion, they would have nothing to worry about.