That's my goal I figure I'm going to need the following:



Intake

Header

Exhaust

High Flow Cat

Full Synthetics All Around

Upgrade Spark Plugs Wires/ Reground major grounds

ECU (pocket logger or Apexi SAFC)

Clutch

Flywheel

?light drive shaft?





Any other things I could do? (besides porting, want to avoid taking the engine out/apart)

87 S4 BTW https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif



I figure low 15's or high 14's with that much hp. @ <2600 lbs.

if you do 170 with just that. i will be impressed

Lol, That's why I'm asking I know I'm missing a few things. Like emissions removal, TB mod, S5 intake manifold, an intake manifold insulator etc.



Or I could go the "Lazy" route and just drop in a 13b-T.

well how much do you want ? its much easier to make power 13bt



n/a costs alot!

roughtly 170whp or 190-200 flywheel hp.



If I can do 160whp with what I listed that should be sufficient as well.

dont think so, but you can try

s4?



throw some stock turbo **** on it and boost it.



trust me, its worth it.

I thought that was a bad idea because of differences between the N/A and turbo engines? Something about compression and stuff...

s4 na has relatively low compression. gotta keep the tune rich for safety, atleast i am.



but really, port a tii lim, and then everything bolts on and plugs right in. easy peasy.

i dont know about s4, i think you're down 10-15hp over an s5.



i have a customer with an s5 na, intake, header, catback, gtus rear end, and vert rims, it runs high 14's....

Try swapping in a s5 upper manifold and make the VDI work. you'll get a few hps in the upper end at higher revs.



C

Leetheslacker suggested going turbo, would that work (my engine has 84k miels on it) ? Or if I wanted to go that route would the swap be better?



Not looking for massive power just something around, maybe a little more than that of a stock S4 turbo hp numbers. Just enough to have a little more fun.

Dont waste your time/money on the swap. You can get what you want out of being NA...



The route I would look at though is running individual throttle bodies with a standalone EMS. Headers, free flow exhaust, ud crank pulley and port match EVERYTHING (UIM, LIM, ENGINE, etc) you should make the power you want.



I've seen NA cars make over 200whp on stock ports with this work performed.

I would add, solid motormounts, true cold air with heatshielding tape, ultra stiff/solid tranny mounts and if you plan on drag racing you will have to weld reinforcements for the rear subframe where the front diff mount braket is attached or have a few spares on hand it will break,I have broke 3 till I welded up the one I got now. Also maybe a wet shot of NOS, and a digtal MSD 6.

thats the typical dream na build. emphasis on dream.



not saying it hasnt been done, and if i had money laying around i'd love to do it. but most people who dream up this setup either cant afford it, or dont wanna spend that much money to only end up at 200 when investing that money in a boosted application will be much more bang for your buck.



that said, do whatever you want. nothing beats the sound of a pissed off high revving na rotary with itbs.

So matching the STOCK S4 or S5 turbo's is not reasonable? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...O_DIR#>/11.gif I getting a mixed message lol. I'm not looking to drag race, just enough power over stock to help in AutoX and possibly the track. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif

If your goal is road racing or auto-x.. NA is better and more linear - turbo is IMHO not as good for auto-x ...road racing is different, I prefer turbo there...



You can build the NA w/ the specs I mentioned earlier for under $5k... to do a legitimate na-turbo conversion will cost at least that for a reliable outcome, but typically more (mine ran up to $8k when all was done)...



the setup I mentioned actually ran 202whp w/ an s5 engine, but pulling off 170whp w/ a similar setup for a s4 is not impossible and i would think cheaper than an all out turbo swap.



Swapping the manifolds to put stock t2 parts to an NA is not reliable for racing...

Thanks for the advice hopefully I can atleast match the turbo and have around 180 flywheel hp.

you can turbo the na for under 2k and keep it reliable.



run stockish boost and keep the tune on the rich side. thats what im doing anyways, and its night and day between na and boosted.

What exactly would cost so much during all of this? You can easily make your own exhaust, even if buying in an RB header for a few hundred $. Get a few scrap UIM/LIM or whatever and port them good. Then portmatch everything, junk all emissions/unnecessary ****, sort a proper cold air feed, then all you really have to buy is new leads/plugs and an air filter and SAFC?



I want to do similar, but I don't mind ripping the lump apart and trying for a decent bridgeport too (I hope this is where the real gains can be had).



Anyone can get 300bhp turbo, but where's the fun in that? And the way I see it, might be wrong, but the turbo's alone are $500, intercooler $200, piping $100, proper downpipe/elbow, then you have all the complexities of mapping to deal with. I can't see how, for a reliable 200bhp @ the flywheel a turbo would be cheaper/easier.

It all comes down to what your goals are with the car, the purpose of the car, and your budget. If you have a small budget, save your pennies and start eating ramen 3 times a day.



I wonder how much Lee has spent so far on turboing his original 6port N/A motor? And roughly how much power he is looking at? Compare that to an N/A? Your results are right there.

the stock intakes arent that good, porting helps but its like using a toothpick to kill an elephant. the ecu sucks once you mod the thing too.

I'm willing to go either way (trubo or N/A) to get to about 180 FLYWHEEL hp. Just the same level as a stock turbo S4. Like I said my goals are autoX and maybe road racing.

i like TQ so i would go turbo...

like i said, im probably in around 2k, if that.



im pretty sure i got all the stock parts for about 800ish, + or - some, but its not hard to find some deals. i got a lot of it in chunks of parts from people parting and the such.



i already had the safc when i did it, but i found a deal and got a safc2 for only 180.



picked up some 720's for $50.



oil pedastal and some oil cooler hose from summity, like $60



2751 blockoff set $50



picked up a boost/watertemp/oiltemp gauge set for $50



$80 ebay ic core, and $80 ebay piping. Maybe another 50-80 in misc additional couplers.



downpipe and midpipe was $150, already had a catback.



not running a bov, but used ones are cheap, or do the crushed dsm whatever.



wideband was $250, but you could always just get a shop to tune it.



im running a NA TB elbow, so you could do that, or add $100 for a greddy one or like $20 for a stock one.



i still need a clutch, but thats like what, 150-300? ive heard some good things about those $150 xtd six pucks and am learning that way.



so thats under 2k, and with all the little misc **** its probably right about 2k.



and it was easy too. fill in and port the lim to match, make room for the fmic, cut two wires at the ecu plug, and then bolt and plug in everything and youre good to go.



and im atleast around stock tii power, maybe more. stock 8psi + the slightly higher compression. once i get a clutch and tune it better then my rich everywhere tune right now i wanna throw it on a dyno.

dont get a XTD clutch. get a real one ! you will just wind up changing the clutch twice...

i have noting bad to say about the xtd sprung 6 puck it was a good clutch to dd on after the engine swap i replaced it w/ the rb unsprong 6 punk and its not bad

Hers is my take, wether you want to extract as much HP as possible from a NA, or want to go turbo; your best investment will be a stand alone ecu (microtech\haltech\Wolf).



Put your $$$ there, the sky will be your limit aftewards...

Ouch, I ended up replacing the OEM flywheel after a couple of years of using the RB unsprung clutch disk https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub..._DIR#>/sad.gif

Is Tweakit the only one that makes individual throttle bodies for 13b?

Tweakit is a good spot for the ITBs..others offer them, but they are more money for the same quality IMO.



As for the whole discussion - rowtareh says it - its opinion, would i race on a bunch of used stock parts i rigged up on my NA engine - hell no, I've been on the track to long and seen too many let downs because you didnt go the extra mile (or $1K).





Race whatever you want, but eventually - real power and real reliability means doing it right. I did it wrong for many years and paid a hefty price, I'll never go back...



BTW - s4 stock boost isnt 8psi, just an FYI...

180 flywheel hp shouldn't be too hard https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif I hope .... lol

no its not. we did 170+ rear wheel with the following setup:



s5 na block (stock, as per the rules)

s5 na intakes

custom header into 3" exhaust (i think its overkill, 2.5" should work)

haltech e6x

msd 6a on leading



on the stock ecu we were down under 10PEAK hp ,BUT the haltech gives you a much broader power band, from 3500-5500 stock ecu is down like 20hp, and over 6500 the stock ecu drops off where the haltech doesnt. also the haltech gives us enough better mileage that we didnt need the 3rd pitstop anymore

Really?! wow! I guess the key peice in extracting the most from the engine is the Engine Management system. Which is the most user friendly, and straight forward in instlation?

im in the middle of my S4 NA 170whp build here is my take ...there is a s5 NA w/ 170whp around where i live so an S4 wont be much off ...do the exhaust, ect ...stuff you mentioned and get a good EMS...tuned right should be able to pull it off....im making 161whp on my full exhaust RB headers, custom catback no cats..., reworked ignition (bigger wires ect) 11lbs flywheel ...good XTD clutch ..synethic everything ...custom intake ...no emissions...and a SAFC...i just need a few more horses then im done https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif its a quick little car now ...i dropped some dead weight and run 14s at the quarter mile...although i hardly ever keep the car straight ...DRIFT

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683561.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683664.gif



BTW - The best stand alone ECU will be the one that your tuner works\tunes.

Hey you did post solide numbers https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.gif But thanks I'll take your advice.

You can actually go higher than that; if you go with a ITB\Holley style TB (and its matching intake manifold) https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683329.gif

A very good upgrade for any n/a guy is a 4.30 rear end with LSD. Also if you are looking for cheating n/a power to an electric supercharger from e-ram. If i had the extra $500 laying around I'd do it.

Hal9000 has a 4.30 rear end that he is selling/trading so someone should swoop that up because it makes a big difference, but thats just my 2 cents.