Finally turbo swapping my vert
12-10-2007, 06:49 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Jensen Beach, FL / Sylva, NC
Posts: 2,934
Rob,
My last post on this OMP thing I promise. I just want you to know what I found out. Remember I WAS anti-premix. I did not want to be bothered playing chemist every time I had to fill up. Once converted, I realized it was very easy to pre-mix. I wait until I am below 1/4 tank then add 6 ounces of premix then add usually 12 gallons of fuel give or take its not really important you be exact, just close.
http://pettitracing.com/rx8/index_faq_protek.htm
Also, using 2 stroke oil and injecting it with the OMP is not going to make it any better other than you will not have build up from unburnt 4 cycle oil. As far as lubricating goes, the OMP will not work.
Why Rotaries are not failing all over the place is simple, I have a friend with a ITS car that has not had a OMP or premix in it for 7 seasons on the same engine. These are hearty engines and they last, but when your pushing them hard in a turbo application every little bit helps. In my friends case he has only track miles on his RX7 and while he has run 7 seasons his total miles is probably less than 5K miles.
Did you tear down your N/A engine? You did not premix it right? Tear it down and see the little 4mm wide bands going about 1/4 the way around the housing essentially showing you the OMP was doing nothing more than lubricating a 4mm wide band on the apex seal.
IMHO the OMP is a waste of space under the hood, Pre-mix is the only way to go. This coming from a guy that was adamant he would never premix.
My last post on this OMP thing I promise. I just want you to know what I found out. Remember I WAS anti-premix. I did not want to be bothered playing chemist every time I had to fill up. Once converted, I realized it was very easy to pre-mix. I wait until I am below 1/4 tank then add 6 ounces of premix then add usually 12 gallons of fuel give or take its not really important you be exact, just close.
If we expect good longevity and top performance from our rotary engines , it is clearly evident that extra lubricant must be added to the fuel.
This is why; the oil metering system is responsible for lubricating the delicate apex seals, compression seals and housing surfaces that are common to every rotary engine. Oil is fed from the engine oiling system (oil-pan) to a variable ratio-metering pump, then it’s injected into the engine where it partially blends with the onrushing air-fuel charge, this incomplete blending and fuel-to-oil ratios of 400:1*and higher, are cause for alarm, but now add in unleaded fuels that are designed to clean piston engines, these fuels and the rotary’s high combustion temperature quickly clean away this small amount of oil leaving little or no lubrication. This causes increased friction and wear, resulting in decreased performance and longevity. With over 25 years experience and more than 1000 rotary engines built, we know excessive wear on apex and compression seals as well as critical housing surfaces is caused from inadequate lubrication and using today’s fuels. What’s all this mean? With out proper lubrication friction, heat and today’s fuels will likely cause premature failure of some expensive engine parts , great for Mazda’s profits but not good for you and me.
This is why; the oil metering system is responsible for lubricating the delicate apex seals, compression seals and housing surfaces that are common to every rotary engine. Oil is fed from the engine oiling system (oil-pan) to a variable ratio-metering pump, then it’s injected into the engine where it partially blends with the onrushing air-fuel charge, this incomplete blending and fuel-to-oil ratios of 400:1*and higher, are cause for alarm, but now add in unleaded fuels that are designed to clean piston engines, these fuels and the rotary’s high combustion temperature quickly clean away this small amount of oil leaving little or no lubrication. This causes increased friction and wear, resulting in decreased performance and longevity. With over 25 years experience and more than 1000 rotary engines built, we know excessive wear on apex and compression seals as well as critical housing surfaces is caused from inadequate lubrication and using today’s fuels. What’s all this mean? With out proper lubrication friction, heat and today’s fuels will likely cause premature failure of some expensive engine parts , great for Mazda’s profits but not good for you and me.
http://pettitracing.com/rx8/index_faq_protek.htm
Also, using 2 stroke oil and injecting it with the OMP is not going to make it any better other than you will not have build up from unburnt 4 cycle oil. As far as lubricating goes, the OMP will not work.
Why Rotaries are not failing all over the place is simple, I have a friend with a ITS car that has not had a OMP or premix in it for 7 seasons on the same engine. These are hearty engines and they last, but when your pushing them hard in a turbo application every little bit helps. In my friends case he has only track miles on his RX7 and while he has run 7 seasons his total miles is probably less than 5K miles.
Did you tear down your N/A engine? You did not premix it right? Tear it down and see the little 4mm wide bands going about 1/4 the way around the housing essentially showing you the OMP was doing nothing more than lubricating a 4mm wide band on the apex seal.
IMHO the OMP is a waste of space under the hood, Pre-mix is the only way to go. This coming from a guy that was adamant he would never premix.
12-11-2007, 11:54 AM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The fine state of Denial...
Posts: 153
I thought some of the OMP lines went into the intake manifold so the oil would lubricate everything, not just the apex seals?
I also think too many people make a big deal about the "muss'n'fuss" associated with premixing. The worst part about premixing for me is the stares and idiot comments from other people at the gas station. When I REALLY want to freak them out I just open my trunk and start pouring methanol in there, lol.
I notice your boost gauge reads in bar instead of psi, did you get it like that on purpose?
I also think too many people make a big deal about the "muss'n'fuss" associated with premixing. The worst part about premixing for me is the stares and idiot comments from other people at the gas station. When I REALLY want to freak them out I just open my trunk and start pouring methanol in there, lol.
I notice your boost gauge reads in bar instead of psi, did you get it like that on purpose?
12-12-2007, 12:18 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Amityville, New York
Posts: 12,288
some more assembly pics, you can see the clearance tools, some of the stuff is just sitting on there for the picture and not yet
mounted.
The RB flywheel is there, and my custom clutch set up.
Cosmo pulleys were mocked up as well as the FD alternator which needs some fitting.
mounted.
The RB flywheel is there, and my custom clutch set up.
Cosmo pulleys were mocked up as well as the FD alternator which needs some fitting.
12-12-2007, 05:48 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Amityville, New York
Posts: 12,288
we shall overcome, I KNOW I wont keep this turbo, after the car is sorted, the suspension finished- then
its turbo swapping time- maybe next winter- I want to drive this thing when the weather breaks
its turbo swapping time- maybe next winter- I want to drive this thing when the weather breaks
12-13-2007, 11:06 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Jensen Beach, FL / Sylva, NC
Posts: 2,934
I think your going to like that T04B a lot. Especially if your just street driving it. It will be really responsive and give a really nice punch fast. Top end will suffer but, honestly on a street driven car it should not be important. Bottom end, where you will spend most of your time will be most important.
When I switched from my hybrid T04E made out of a series 5 Turbo with a TMIC and went to a FMIC and true T04E I was surprised at the lag. I was so used to the quickness of the TMIC, and little turbo.
The engine looks really nice. If your spending the winter on this swap I suspect the final product will be really clean. Looking good so far. That vert is going to be the ultimate cruiser.
When I switched from my hybrid T04E made out of a series 5 Turbo with a TMIC and went to a FMIC and true T04E I was surprised at the lag. I was so used to the quickness of the TMIC, and little turbo.
The engine looks really nice. If your spending the winter on this swap I suspect the final product will be really clean. Looking good so far. That vert is going to be the ultimate cruiser.
12-13-2007, 11:10 AM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Jensen Beach, FL / Sylva, NC
Posts: 2,934
BTW - Is that Racing Beat Flywheel the 12# one?
I remember when I switched from stock to a 9.5# one from SR Motorsports your going to like that a lot. Taking off requires a little skill but the throttle response from that lightened flywheel is just amazing. Your going to love that setup.
I remember when I switched from stock to a 9.5# one from SR Motorsports your going to like that a lot. Taking off requires a little skill but the throttle response from that lightened flywheel is just amazing. Your going to love that setup.
12-13-2007, 11:29 AM
#29
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Amityville, New York
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I went with the 12lb'er for ease of street driving, always hearing good things about it in the past.
Big numbers are great for bragging rights, but I want a car I can drive safely and enjoy on a sunday afternoon.
Big numbers are great for bragging rights, but I want a car I can drive safely and enjoy on a sunday afternoon.
12-14-2007, 12:22 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 10,906
Originally Posted by Jims5543' post='890035' date='Dec 13 2007, 01:06 PM
I think your going to like that T04B a lot. Especially if your just street driving it. It will be really responsive and give a really nice punch fast. Top end will suffer but, honestly on a street driven car it should not be important. Bottom end, where you will spend most of your time will be most important.
When I switched from my hybrid T04E made out of a series 5 Turbo with a TMIC and went to a FMIC and true T04E I was surprised at the lag. I was so used to the quickness of the TMIC, and little turbo.
The engine looks really nice. If your spending the winter on this swap I suspect the final product will be really clean. Looking good so far. That vert is going to be the ultimate cruiser.
When I switched from my hybrid T04E made out of a series 5 Turbo with a TMIC and went to a FMIC and true T04E I was surprised at the lag. I was so used to the quickness of the TMIC, and little turbo.
The engine looks really nice. If your spending the winter on this swap I suspect the final product will be really clean. Looking good so far. That vert is going to be the ultimate cruiser.
That has not been my experience, I think one reason top end sufferes on a lot of cars with smaller turbos is they usually couple them to small turbine a/rs( .84 P trims for example), in addition to smaller exhaust systems. Then again air density is never concentrated on; like sucking air off your radiator...
Car looks good robo, get rid of that pos cast iron manifold...