Boosting A Convert
09-22-2005, 08:25 PM
#11
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 25
I had heard already that you end up blowing seals...I might be able to get the parts, or would it be possible to just upgrade seals for it? I have the time to do it correctly, I'm just stuck on the decision.
09-22-2005, 09:18 PM
#12
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,467
Swap the drivetrain and run the T2 engine.
more potential in that platform for the money and time spent.
more potential in that platform for the money and time spent.
09-22-2005, 11:57 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
you can do the t2 swap in phases too, you can put the motor in and the do the driveline later, or do the driveline and then the engine
09-25-2005, 12:38 AM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: A2, MI
Posts: 453
you'd lose quite a bit of the structural integrity that way, and the car wouldnt have any of the extra bracing in the floor to make up for it... so ud have a vert TII taht was as stiff as a piece of wet spaghetti
09-25-2005, 01:32 AM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Freeport FL
Posts: 381
ColinRX7 You can swap a TII driveline (engine, trans, driveshaft, diff, axles), harness, and ECU into your convertable and it will run just like a TII
This is by far the best way to do a turbo N/A. More so for a n00b.
however if you bought an aftermarket turbocharger and used the stock N/A block and intake manifolds and such, there's alot more than just bolting it up. You have to upgrade fuel injectors and get some type of fuel injection management (or at least something to step up the fuel).. Not as cut and dry as a TII driveline swap..
This is half answered. First the posted should view the archives. Next the turbo will not bolt up to the NA system, it will not fit. You have to build a spacer and then the turbo hits the frame and the frame needs cut out. Or you need to port match TII intake manifolds. Or you need to buy a kit from 1300cc.com. Or you need a custom manifold from 1revin7. The next thing needed as you said is fuel injectors depending on your boost level four 550cc injectors out of a TII will work. Next is a fuel pump. Next is highly suggested a TII ECU or a 1988 vert ECU N338 will work, because the N/A will not pull back timing under boost. If you chose the TII ECU rout and not a stand alone EMS and TII AFM and PS will be needed.
PinNDiv07 ok, i know of a place i could get a turbo drivetrain, and all that stuff.
You are talking about a full TII swap motor and driveline? If so awesome.
Would getting one of the piggy-back systems solve most of those problems, minus the jetting?
Not really, lets look at options. One there is no jetting involved, the FC is an EFI system not carbureted. Next yes a SAFC would work to control fuel or a E-manage or other type of EFI controller but unless you change to TII or N338 ECU or stand alone with ignition control you are still not retarding timing under boost which results in bad mojo. Now if you upgrade the E-mange harness to support ignition and so on you are well into the cost of a stand-alone EMS so why bother? Good news though Mega Squirt N Spark can be had for well under 400$ and it is an awesome stand alone EMS that is fairly new and is proving awesome.
drftk1d try to get a turbo II motor
I agree
One320B won't take as much boost on stock internals as a t2 block...
ColinRX7 the car will run a bit hotter, so you should probably upgrade your radiator
Yes it will run a tad hotter then the N/A motor but why in gods name is an upgraded RAD needed? They use the same RAD as the TII so why is a bigger one needed now? Stock RAD’s have been proven to work in 350whp setups time and time again. I do agree in upgrading it b/c I am a cooling capacity fanatic but it is surly not needed on moderate setups. And if he was going all out I doubt he would be here asking how too.
But it's takes more to tune, and it's not something you want to be doing on a stock ECU.
And you state this why? How many people are putting down 300whp on stock ECU? A lot and he can simply use the Rtek chip to tune a safe 375whp setup on a TII ECU if he is running a S4 setup.
In the great words of Banzai, estimate your costs for your custom project, and add 50%
AMEN BROTHER!
One320B I was just stating that if he is simply trying to turbo his car, just do the swap as turboing the stock NA will not be the best idea...unless he likes 6-10psi max w/out going standalone.
toplessFC3Sman wait, so ur saying you can turbo an NA (of course with lower boost levels) and still run the stock ECU?
There is absolutely no reason he cannot run the 12psi efficacy range of the stock turbo! Running a OEM ECU with 720ccS injectors.
PinNDiv07 I had heard already that you end up blowing seals...I might be able to get the parts, or would it be possible to just upgrade seals for it? I have the time to do it correctly, I'm just stuck on the decision.
There is no just simple thing like upgrading the seals for it. It is a good idea to rebuild the motor. A strong motor with a proper setup will not blow weather it is NA or TII rotors that is irrelevant.
If you want to use the 6port block the right way to do this is rebuild the motor “you then have a chance to port it” and gather all the parts you need.
89 Rag Swap the drivetrain and run the T2 engine.
more potential in that platform for the money and time spent.
Some will agree some will disagree, I agree.
j9fd3s you can do the t2 swap in phases too, you can put the motor in and the do the driveline later, or do the driveline and then the engine
Yea that’s the way to go when yo'ur on a budget.
This is by far the best way to do a turbo N/A. More so for a n00b.
however if you bought an aftermarket turbocharger and used the stock N/A block and intake manifolds and such, there's alot more than just bolting it up. You have to upgrade fuel injectors and get some type of fuel injection management (or at least something to step up the fuel).. Not as cut and dry as a TII driveline swap..
This is half answered. First the posted should view the archives. Next the turbo will not bolt up to the NA system, it will not fit. You have to build a spacer and then the turbo hits the frame and the frame needs cut out. Or you need to port match TII intake manifolds. Or you need to buy a kit from 1300cc.com. Or you need a custom manifold from 1revin7. The next thing needed as you said is fuel injectors depending on your boost level four 550cc injectors out of a TII will work. Next is a fuel pump. Next is highly suggested a TII ECU or a 1988 vert ECU N338 will work, because the N/A will not pull back timing under boost. If you chose the TII ECU rout and not a stand alone EMS and TII AFM and PS will be needed.
PinNDiv07 ok, i know of a place i could get a turbo drivetrain, and all that stuff.
You are talking about a full TII swap motor and driveline? If so awesome.
Would getting one of the piggy-back systems solve most of those problems, minus the jetting?
Not really, lets look at options. One there is no jetting involved, the FC is an EFI system not carbureted. Next yes a SAFC would work to control fuel or a E-manage or other type of EFI controller but unless you change to TII or N338 ECU or stand alone with ignition control you are still not retarding timing under boost which results in bad mojo. Now if you upgrade the E-mange harness to support ignition and so on you are well into the cost of a stand-alone EMS so why bother? Good news though Mega Squirt N Spark can be had for well under 400$ and it is an awesome stand alone EMS that is fairly new and is proving awesome.
drftk1d try to get a turbo II motor
I agree
One320B won't take as much boost on stock internals as a t2 block...
ColinRX7 the car will run a bit hotter, so you should probably upgrade your radiator
Yes it will run a tad hotter then the N/A motor but why in gods name is an upgraded RAD needed? They use the same RAD as the TII so why is a bigger one needed now? Stock RAD’s have been proven to work in 350whp setups time and time again. I do agree in upgrading it b/c I am a cooling capacity fanatic but it is surly not needed on moderate setups. And if he was going all out I doubt he would be here asking how too.
But it's takes more to tune, and it's not something you want to be doing on a stock ECU.
And you state this why? How many people are putting down 300whp on stock ECU? A lot and he can simply use the Rtek chip to tune a safe 375whp setup on a TII ECU if he is running a S4 setup.
In the great words of Banzai, estimate your costs for your custom project, and add 50%
AMEN BROTHER!
One320B I was just stating that if he is simply trying to turbo his car, just do the swap as turboing the stock NA will not be the best idea...unless he likes 6-10psi max w/out going standalone.
toplessFC3Sman wait, so ur saying you can turbo an NA (of course with lower boost levels) and still run the stock ECU?
There is absolutely no reason he cannot run the 12psi efficacy range of the stock turbo! Running a OEM ECU with 720ccS injectors.
PinNDiv07 I had heard already that you end up blowing seals...I might be able to get the parts, or would it be possible to just upgrade seals for it? I have the time to do it correctly, I'm just stuck on the decision.
There is no just simple thing like upgrading the seals for it. It is a good idea to rebuild the motor. A strong motor with a proper setup will not blow weather it is NA or TII rotors that is irrelevant.
If you want to use the 6port block the right way to do this is rebuild the motor “you then have a chance to port it” and gather all the parts you need.
89 Rag Swap the drivetrain and run the T2 engine.
more potential in that platform for the money and time spent.
Some will agree some will disagree, I agree.
j9fd3s you can do the t2 swap in phases too, you can put the motor in and the do the driveline later, or do the driveline and then the engine
Yea that’s the way to go when yo'ur on a budget.
09-25-2005, 10:35 AM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Boston Ma.
Posts: 1,420
Depends on your goals, high HP=need TII stuff.
If your only looking for a bit more power, I would turbo the N/A.
Find an exhaust manifold that fits (Greddy for example) Blockoff ACV and 6PI actuators.
Additional Injector Controller, Its boost sensitive and perfect for regularly driven cars.
Manually dial back the timing(CAS).
The rest you can pick up from different places, even the junk yard. Starion conquest FMIC, DSM recirculating bypass valve "BOV"...
If your only looking for a bit more power, I would turbo the N/A.
Find an exhaust manifold that fits (Greddy for example) Blockoff ACV and 6PI actuators.
Additional Injector Controller, Its boost sensitive and perfect for regularly driven cars.
Manually dial back the timing(CAS).
The rest you can pick up from different places, even the junk yard. Starion conquest FMIC, DSM recirculating bypass valve "BOV"...
09-25-2005, 01:39 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,502
Originally Posted by iceblue' post='762583' date='Sep 25 2005, 02:32 AM
This is half answered. First the posted should view the archives. Next the turbo will not bolt up to the NA system, it will not fit. You have to build a spacer and then the turbo hits the frame and the frame needs cut out. Or you need to port match TII intake manifolds. Or you need to buy a kit from 1300cc.com. Or you need a custom manifold from 1revin7. The next thing needed as you said is fuel injectors depending on your boost level four 550cc injectors out of a TII will work. Next is a fuel pump. Next is highly suggested a TII ECU or a 1988 vert ECU N338 will work, because the N/A will not pull back timing under boost. If you chose the TII ECU rout and not a stand alone EMS and TII AFM and PS will be needed.
Think outside the box, if you are doing a turbocharged N/A, you are already looking at making your own bolt-ons. Spare me the technicality of which manifolds to buy. It's not this OR this OR this, the end, alot of people are capable of making their own parts. Here at nopistons, we don't tell people to read the archives. And no question is half answered.
Yes it will run a tad hotter then the N/A motor but why in gods name is an upgraded RAD needed? They use the same RAD as the TII so why is a bigger one needed now? Stock RAD’s have been proven to work in 350whp setups time and time again. I do agree in upgrading it b/c I am a cooling capacity fanatic but it is surly not needed on moderate setups. And if he was going all out I doubt he would be here asking how too.
It doesn't matter that the TII uses the same radiator, the N/A has higher compression (which would now be under boost). That's a noteable difference in combustion heat, which is soaked by the cooling system. The N/A has a weaker oil pump than the TII, and now the oiling system which is designed to cool just the rotors, now feeds and cools the turbocharger as well. Cooling upgrades are in order, but you don't HAVE to. Just like you don't HAVE to run 93 octane in a TII, it will run on 89..
And you state this why? How many people are putting down 300whp on stock ECU? A lot and he can simply use the Rtek chip to tune a safe 375whp setup on a TII ECU if he is running a S4 setup.
Again, think outside the box for a minute. It doesn't matter that you can do this with this specific part, you have no control. You can do it, yes, but is it ideal? No. I've had my share of experience with mods and using the OEM controllers, and they are garbage. Ask anyone about their EMS, and they will all tell you, first mod is to get an EMS. They're not saying it for fun. FYI if you were noticing the context of my post, I was talking about running high boost levels in an N/A shortblock, in response to one320B saying that it couldn't handle it. I was saying, sure it can, if you tune it. OEM units for tuning? No.
09-25-2005, 03:08 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: south jersey
Posts: 348
there is way too much going on in this thread. If you do turbo an n/a, make sure it gets done right, because mistakes can be expensive.
09-25-2005, 09:58 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Freeport FL
Posts: 381
Originally Posted by ColinRX7' post='762669' date='Sep 25 2005, 01:39 PM
Think outside the box, if you are doing a turbocharged N/A, you are already looking at making your own bolt-ons. Spare me the technicality of which manifolds to buy. It's not this OR this OR this, the end, alot of people are capable of making their own parts. Here at nopistons, we don't tell people to read the archives. And no question is half answered.
It doesn't matter that the TII uses the same radiator, the N/A has higher compression (which would now be under boost). That's a noteable difference in combustion heat, which is soaked by the cooling system. The N/A has a weaker oil pump than the TII, and now the oiling system which is designed to cool just the rotors, now feeds and cools the turbocharger as well. Cooling upgrades are in order, but you don't HAVE to. Just like you don't HAVE to run 93 octane in a TII, it will run on 89..
Again, think outside the box for a minute. It doesn't matter that you can do this with this specific part, you have no control. You can do it, yes, but is it ideal? No. I've had my share of experience with mods and using the OEM controllers, and they are garbage. Ask anyone about their EMS, and they will all tell you, first mod is to get an EMS. They're not saying it for fun. FYI if you were noticing the context of my post, I was talking about running high boost levels in an N/A shortblock, in response to one320B saying that it couldn't handle it. I was saying, sure it can, if you tune it. OEM units for tuning? No.
I agree with doing it the right way. IMO no turbo vehicle should even run without a stand alone EMS. However under moderate conditions and normal boost levels of 12psi on the stock turbo the OEM system is more then proficient and will not exceed its capacity.
09-25-2005, 10:25 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 959
One320B won't take as much boost on stock internals as a t2 block...
So your telling me if you took a stock NA block and put 15-20psi it would do just fine? I think not..higher compression, weaker oil system, and the need to retard timing and have infinite tuning abilities... I've seen and done both and you sir are wrong if you think stock for stock an NA engine will survive the same levels of boost as the T2 block. I'm not saying an NA can't do it...but your reading too much into my responses. The guy just wanted to know if he should turbo his NA or do the swap..and the easy answer, and less complicated, is to just do the swap.
One320B I was just stating that if he is simply trying to turbo his car, just do the swap as turboing the stock NA will not be the best idea...unless he likes 6-10psi max w/out going standalone.
Again, as I said before...this is the normal safe level on NA engines w/out standalone. That Rtek chip you speak of only takes it so far...rotary or not, any time you have higher compression, the more boost you run the more ignition you take back...or you get into a water/alcohol mix. The T2 ecu compensates ignition (and fuel) for boost...the NA ecu does not. Show me an NA block running OEM EMS at 15-20psi (piggy backs fuel systems allowed) and then I'll believe you.
So your telling me if you took a stock NA block and put 15-20psi it would do just fine? I think not..higher compression, weaker oil system, and the need to retard timing and have infinite tuning abilities... I've seen and done both and you sir are wrong if you think stock for stock an NA engine will survive the same levels of boost as the T2 block. I'm not saying an NA can't do it...but your reading too much into my responses. The guy just wanted to know if he should turbo his NA or do the swap..and the easy answer, and less complicated, is to just do the swap.
One320B I was just stating that if he is simply trying to turbo his car, just do the swap as turboing the stock NA will not be the best idea...unless he likes 6-10psi max w/out going standalone.
Again, as I said before...this is the normal safe level on NA engines w/out standalone. That Rtek chip you speak of only takes it so far...rotary or not, any time you have higher compression, the more boost you run the more ignition you take back...or you get into a water/alcohol mix. The T2 ecu compensates ignition (and fuel) for boost...the NA ecu does not. Show me an NA block running OEM EMS at 15-20psi (piggy backs fuel systems allowed) and then I'll believe you.