Flooding Problems.
02-10-2003, 12:04 AM
#1
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: North Carolina
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Whoo-hoo, first post! I just bought an 88 SE and in the day time(~40 degrees) it starts and runs fine. At night time(~30 degrees or below) it won't start. It seems to be flooding. The past couple of nights at work I had to pop the clutch on a hill to get it started. I know nothing about RX-7's or rotary's. It also smokes for about a minute at start-ups. Does anyone know what may be wrong?
Since I'm new to the whole rotary thing, can anyone tell me of some good mods to do first. It's N/A.
Since I'm new to the whole rotary thing, can anyone tell me of some good mods to do first. It's N/A.
02-10-2003, 04:08 PM
#2
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Eastern PA
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Welcome to the forum.... there isn't much traffic in this FAQ section for some reason... you're better off posting in the 2gen specific.
As for the starting issue, are you letting it fully warm up before you shut it off? Do you smell or see any fuel around the intake manifold (passenger side)? What color is the smoke? I would get the car in good running order before you begin modding it. There is a staged upgrade post somewhere in here by Rotaryman88. Most N/A guys will start with a basic K&N drop in filter or $10 Ebay cone intake with MAF adapter, then replace your cats with a header or pipe and presilencer, then cat-back exhaust, pullies, fan, etc, etc.
As for the starting issue, are you letting it fully warm up before you shut it off? Do you smell or see any fuel around the intake manifold (passenger side)? What color is the smoke? I would get the car in good running order before you begin modding it. There is a staged upgrade post somewhere in here by Rotaryman88. Most N/A guys will start with a basic K&N drop in filter or $10 Ebay cone intake with MAF adapter, then replace your cats with a header or pipe and presilencer, then cat-back exhaust, pullies, fan, etc, etc.
02-10-2003, 09:56 PM
#3
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I appreciate that bit of info on some primary mods. There's no smell of fuel around the intake anywhere. The car is fully warmed when it is shut off because I drove it like 25 miles. The smoke is grey/white in color. I read something about an oil control ring could be the cause, but the engine was supposedly rebuilt about 25K ago.
I'll be sure to post in the right areas next time, sorry.
I'll be sure to post in the right areas next time, sorry.
02-11-2003, 07:28 AM
#4
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Location: Eastern PA
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Dont apologize man! I'm just trying to get your post some exposure to the guru's on here.
hmm, I'm not sure about the flooding thing but you can try the unflood procedure just in case. Next time it happens, pull your EGI main fuse from the main block under the hood (driver side shock tower), crank the engine for 20-30 seconds, put it back in and try to start it. Some white smoke is common... it could be coolant, some unburnt fuel, or just moisture. My 86 uses some coolant each month and white/blue smokes for about a minute each time I start it cold... no big deal but it has 168K on it.
If the car is stalling out/hard starting, smoking, and just running rough, you may have more problems like timing, vacuum or intake leaks, etc. Its hard to diagnose without specifics and I'm certainly no expert, lol.
hmm, I'm not sure about the flooding thing but you can try the unflood procedure just in case. Next time it happens, pull your EGI main fuse from the main block under the hood (driver side shock tower), crank the engine for 20-30 seconds, put it back in and try to start it. Some white smoke is common... it could be coolant, some unburnt fuel, or just moisture. My 86 uses some coolant each month and white/blue smokes for about a minute each time I start it cold... no big deal but it has 168K on it.
If the car is stalling out/hard starting, smoking, and just running rough, you may have more problems like timing, vacuum or intake leaks, etc. Its hard to diagnose without specifics and I'm certainly no expert, lol.
02-11-2003, 09:31 AM
#5
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Peoria, AZ
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the whiteish smoke on startup when cold can be moisture in the fuel, thats nothing to worry about, but if the smoke is really white and smells kinda of sweet then its coolant. Is your car using coolant? You would know if you car is using coolant by the buzzer going off. If it is not, don't worry about it. Before doing any performance mods you should do all the proper maintence. A midpipe(replaces cats).
02-11-2003, 10:42 PM
#6
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Thanks guys, you've already been a great help. It hasn't given me any problems the past couple of nights, but if it floods again, I'll try the EGI thing. Sounds like ya'll know what you're talkin' about. I had to add coolant tonight at work. The buzzer went off quite a few times before work, but the light didn't come on. I thought it was just doin' that when I hit redline. After work I started it and the light came on...so I added water. What's causing it to use coolant. I guessed maybe a thermostat, but the heat will run U out of it! Also, the previous owner said he usually added a quart of oil every 1,000 miles.
As U can see, I'm not so mechanically inclined, especially w/ rotary's. I appreciate all the help guys!
As U can see, I'm not so mechanically inclined, especially w/ rotary's. I appreciate all the help guys!
02-11-2003, 11:14 PM
#7
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the buzzer goes off when you redline, it also goes off with some alarms, the add coolant is one of them, low oil is another, I think the exhaust overheat alarm also triggers the buzzer.
Now, since you have indicated that you have had to add coolant, it's possible your engien is consuming coolant, you will want to sit behind the car and smell the exhaust to see if it smells sweet like coolant, or if it just smells like oil, fuel, or just plain ole exhaust gases.
If coolant is being consumed, and your exhaust is sweet smelling, your O rings have a leak somewhere, these are the O rings between the engnie housings. The engine is built like a sandwich, between all the layers of the sandwich are these O rings, coolant passes between the sandwich pieces through passages, which the O rings seal. If an O ring begins to fail, it can let exhaust gases enter the cooling system, or it can let coolant leak into the combustion chamber.
Either way, the O ring failure is a bad thing, and generally requires a engine overhaul.
If it's oil smoke, you likely have oil control ring failure, the oil control rings seal the sides of the rotors helping contain the oil which lubricatse and cools them from the inside. When they fail they let engine oil enter the combustion chamber. This failure can be driven on for quite a while actually, you just have to keep an eye on the oil level. If it starts burning alot of oil, it will start fouling plugs and you will start creating some nasty carbon deposits in the motor, which can really cause some damage over time so it's still recommended that you overhaul the engine.
Just because your coolant alarm went off doesnt necessarily mean you're consuming coolant in the engine, you could have a leak in a hose or radiator... A coolant system pressure check will help diagnose this, most mechanics can do it, or you can buy/rent the tool to check it yourself.
If the exhaust smells 'normal' then your engine might be peachy, the smoke is usually an indication of someting going south though.... and it's usually either O rings or oil control rings that fail and cause the smoking.
how is the oil pressure? what about engine operating temps? and how's the performance?
Now, since you have indicated that you have had to add coolant, it's possible your engien is consuming coolant, you will want to sit behind the car and smell the exhaust to see if it smells sweet like coolant, or if it just smells like oil, fuel, or just plain ole exhaust gases.
If coolant is being consumed, and your exhaust is sweet smelling, your O rings have a leak somewhere, these are the O rings between the engnie housings. The engine is built like a sandwich, between all the layers of the sandwich are these O rings, coolant passes between the sandwich pieces through passages, which the O rings seal. If an O ring begins to fail, it can let exhaust gases enter the cooling system, or it can let coolant leak into the combustion chamber.
Either way, the O ring failure is a bad thing, and generally requires a engine overhaul.
If it's oil smoke, you likely have oil control ring failure, the oil control rings seal the sides of the rotors helping contain the oil which lubricatse and cools them from the inside. When they fail they let engine oil enter the combustion chamber. This failure can be driven on for quite a while actually, you just have to keep an eye on the oil level. If it starts burning alot of oil, it will start fouling plugs and you will start creating some nasty carbon deposits in the motor, which can really cause some damage over time so it's still recommended that you overhaul the engine.
Just because your coolant alarm went off doesnt necessarily mean you're consuming coolant in the engine, you could have a leak in a hose or radiator... A coolant system pressure check will help diagnose this, most mechanics can do it, or you can buy/rent the tool to check it yourself.
If the exhaust smells 'normal' then your engine might be peachy, the smoke is usually an indication of someting going south though.... and it's usually either O rings or oil control rings that fail and cause the smoking.
how is the oil pressure? what about engine operating temps? and how's the performance?
02-11-2003, 11:54 PM
#8
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Thanks a bunch pengaru. I'm starting to get scared, though. Provided that the O rings or oil control rings are the source of the problem and I have to get it overhauled, approximately how much is that goin' to cost me? Is it hard to get done on a rotary? I have a bit of experience on conventional piston engines (thanks to the Army) and want to try to do it myself. How much are the parts and where can I get them? Also, do U know what all parts I'll need?
02-12-2003, 12:06 AM
#9
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presuming engine housings, rotors, and bearings are all within spec, you would at least need a gasket set, in theory one could reuse the apex/side/corner seals but it's not recommended, so you should get a rotor kit also. For a rotor kit and gasket set it's around $900 or so. You can rebuild the motor with that, and that will replace the O rings and oil control rings.
Since the rotary engine has basically 3 major moving parts it's quite a bit simpler than a piston motor, so overhaul is really pretty easy. But you will need some special purpose tools, especially for the inspection procedures when you need to measure things with relatively high precision.
If you find upon teardown that your housings and/or rotors are damaged beyond spec, you will probably have to replace them with either good used parts or new ones, once you start purchasing new housings and rotors the cost of overhaul becomes quite high... It can get in the range of 4-5k if you replace alot of the parts, but I don't believe thats normally necessary, especially if you have a non-turbo vehicle and your problem is just smoking (consuming coolant and/or oil) . The motors that have just gone through seals are usually good candidates for overhaul.. check out http://www.mazdatrix.com for prices on the parts. Minimum would be gasket set to tear down and reassemble a motor, reusing everything else... recommended minimum is gasket set and rotor kit. While you have it apart there are some opportunities for performance improvements, but this obviously depends on your budget and what you want to do with the car.
Oh, there are also some random supplies you need, like hylomar, engine assembly lubes, RTV... thread lock etc.
Since the rotary engine has basically 3 major moving parts it's quite a bit simpler than a piston motor, so overhaul is really pretty easy. But you will need some special purpose tools, especially for the inspection procedures when you need to measure things with relatively high precision.
If you find upon teardown that your housings and/or rotors are damaged beyond spec, you will probably have to replace them with either good used parts or new ones, once you start purchasing new housings and rotors the cost of overhaul becomes quite high... It can get in the range of 4-5k if you replace alot of the parts, but I don't believe thats normally necessary, especially if you have a non-turbo vehicle and your problem is just smoking (consuming coolant and/or oil) . The motors that have just gone through seals are usually good candidates for overhaul.. check out http://www.mazdatrix.com for prices on the parts. Minimum would be gasket set to tear down and reassemble a motor, reusing everything else... recommended minimum is gasket set and rotor kit. While you have it apart there are some opportunities for performance improvements, but this obviously depends on your budget and what you want to do with the car.
Oh, there are also some random supplies you need, like hylomar, engine assembly lubes, RTV... thread lock etc.
