there is no question that if you are a pro racer using methanol WI is pointless, I agree. But then again, Ray doesn't have an intercooler either.



As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.





I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.



Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that. [/quote]

and we live in Okinawa Japan, it's a tropical island about the equivelent to the very south tip of Florida and we don't have cooling problems, Hell I had a 4 1/2 thick 4 core intercooler in front of my car directly in front of my radiator and had absolutly no problems while sitting in the god forsaken not moving rush houre traffic over here for hrs on end with my water temps sitting calmly at 85'c and with heat soak and every thing my intercooler still gave me 45'c intake temps that would have been probably in the 90+ range. Drive you car around and get it nice and hot, then park it and let it idle for about 10min so it'll heat soak the engine bay and intercooler pipes, now take you hand and put it on the end tank on the in side of your intercooler and then on the out side and tell me it doesn't do **** while your not moving.



You also still haven't posted how your measuring your intake temps or what type of sensor your using or where it's at.

there is no question that if you are a pro racer using methanol WI is pointless, I agree. But then again, Ray doesn't have an intercooler either.



As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.





I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.



Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that. [/quote]

and we live in Okinawa Japan, it's a tropical island about the equivelent to the very south tip of Florida and we don't have cooling problems, Hell I had a 4 1/2 thick 4 core intercooler in front of my car directly in front of my radiator and had absolutly no problems while sitting in the god forsaken not moving rush houre traffic over here for hrs on end with my water temps sitting calmly at 85'c and with heat soak and every thing my intercooler still gave me 45'c intake temps that would have been probably in the 90+ range. Drive you car around and get it nice and hot, then park it and let it idle for about 10min so it'll heat soak the engine by and intercooler pipes, now take you had and put it on the end tank on the in side of your intercooler and then on the out side and tell me it doesn't do **** while your not moving.



You also still haven't posted how your measuring your intake temps or what type of sensor your using or where it's at. [/quote]



Im not sure your point. But congrats on your intake temps, but your water temps are not normal for having a FMIC. If you lived where I do your temps would be very high.



I measure through the power FC, stock sensor, stock location.

In that case I guess you don't have a datalogit or you would know about the issues with the stock air temp sensor location and how it responds very slowly to intake air temp changes and how heat soak from the upper intake manifold will also make temp changes take even longer. I also saw your post over on the evil forum where you were talking about having 75'c intake temps while normal driving yet you were claiming completely different #'s here...



Also my point is that Okinawa is hot as ****. Also you’re not even pushing the power to even need water injection so why are you being such a pain in the ass over stuff you’re just starting to experiment with that me and others have been using and testing for quite a while now. I realize your probably young and you think your the **** or maybe you just want to attract attention to yourself, but you should sit back and learn a few things before you go around telling people how much you don't know so they will spend thousands of dollars having to get an engine overhauled because they tried something you posted. I'm pretty confident that I've spent more $ buying parts and trying them out and then getting rid of them and purposely pushing engines till the blow up to see how much it will take than you've spent on your car and every thing in it. You list in your Sig "New mods include 2 cracked Apex Seals: " how did that happen? About 90% of the time it's from predetonation and if your set up was working correctly at you 300ish hp it shouldn't have happened.



Good intercooler = good

Good intercooler + water injection = great

But water injection doesn’t' replace a good intercooler and should not be run by it's self ever on a rotary engine if you want it to last and isn't even required until your getting over the 400hp mark.

there is no question that if you are a pro racer using methanol WI is pointless, I agree. But then again, Ray doesn't have an intercooler either.



As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.





I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.



Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that. [/quote]

Last time I talked to Ray, he was running 110 octane and a SMIC with a built in Ice chest on the IC itself so it's possible that he's changed his setup if he's got to methanol.



I can't exactly speak about the elevation on the little island of Okinawa since everything is roughly sea level, but Okinawa is a sub tropical Island...98+ F is the temp for over 6 month out of the year here. I TRIED to overheat my car by doing numerous drag runs over and over and over again(like do a 400m run, make a u-turn do another 400m run, make a u-turn etc...) and made the water temps climb to a whole 90~ This is on a single turbo HKS-T-45S making over 400 rwhp...No convincing me that FMIC will overheat my car. A good radiator with the right ducting will cool your car off. That simple.



What I don't get is how do you "cruise" and get 19C...assuming that cruising your WI is not on(I don't "cruise" and boost at the same time". I could see the 19C with WI if you were boosting, but as soon as there's no boost...your intake temps will go right back to where they normally are...don't be fooled by the stock intake temp sensor.

In that case I guess you don't have a datalogit or you would know about the issues with the stock air temp sensor location and how it responds very slowly to intake air temp changes and how heat soak from the upper intake manifold will also make temp changes take even longer. I also saw your post over on the evil forum where you were talking about having 75'c intake temps while normal driving yet you were claiming completely different #'s here...



Excuse me? that 75C intake temps was refering to when my car was parked and heatsoaked after sitting for 30 minutes. Now if you would read on you would see that that I said by the time I was in 4th gear my intake temps had droped to 30C or so. I'm claiming anything any different there than I am here, please watch your self.











Also my point is that Okinawa is hot as ****. Also you’re not even pushing the power to even need water injection so why are you being such a pain in the ass over stuff you’re just starting to experiment with that me and others have been using and testing for quite a while now.





you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.



My last engine blew up at 12 psi when I was making 316 HP to the wheels on the dyno. I think I can use water injection, but thanks for the concern.





I realize your probably young and you think your the **** or maybe you just want to attract attention to yourself, but you should sit back and learn a few things before you go around telling people how much you don't know so they will spend thousands of dollars having to get an engine overhauled because they tried something you posted. I'm pretty confident that I've spent more $ buying parts and trying them out and then getting rid of them and purposely pushing engines till the blow up to see how much it will take than you've spent on your car and every thing in it. You list in your Sig "New mods include 2 cracked Apex Seals: " how did that happen? About 90% of the time it's from predetonation and if your set up was working correctly at you 300ish hp it shouldn't have happened.



Good intercooler = good

Good intercooler + water injection = great

But water injection doesn’t' replace a good intercooler and should not be run by it's self ever on a rotary engine if you want it to last and isn't even required until your getting over the 400hp mark.







Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.



You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.



Dont insult me again, dont call me a kid, and lastly dont ever imply that im saying anything different on this forum than on the big forum.



Later.

What I don't get is how do you "cruise" and get 19C...assuming that cruising your WI is not on(I don't "cruise" and boost at the same time". I could see the 19C with WI if you were boosting, but as soon as there's no boost...your intake temps will go right back to where they normally are...don't be fooled by the stock intake temp sensor.





when I was driving on the highway and my temps were 19 I was hitting it pretty hard. By the time my temps hit 19C if I quit hitting boost it will take about 5 minutes and then the temps will rise pretty fast at that point, unless I boost again.



While the stock temp sensor my not be immediate, its not that slow to react. In terms of tuning, sure but...lets say my car his heatsoaked and I hit boost, you can see within maybe 8-10 seconds the temps drop like a rock. So I can see it being behind by a number of seconds or so. And yes I know in terms of tuning that may be a nightmare, but in terms of my temps Im sure they are accurate.

guess it was just a misunderstanding in terminology for the word "cruising"



Either way, Large FMIC will affect flow to the radiator...but after I actually put a FMIC on and watched my water temps, that's when I realized I had no problems with cooling at all. Granted Okinawa see's 98 F day with 70% + humidity during the summer and this was my biggest concern. I had a BIG SMIC intercooler and was tired of having 70+ intake temps, but I didn't want to overheat the car so I put off getting a FMIC for the longest time. Now however, my water temps have stayed consistently low AND my intake temps dropped from 30c to 50c depending on movement.

I understand I should not have said "cruising".



with my SMIC and no water inj Im in mid to upper 30's in the morning and 40-50 in the day. ON the most hot day I'll be mid 50's on the highway.



Problem is city driving and sitting in traffic. The reason I got water injection was due to a traffic jam I was caught in during a 105 degree day. for 1 hour I was bumper to bumper and my intake temps hit 84C from the heatsoak. Every time I hit the gas to move foreward and then hit the brake my car backfired so loud. It was horrible experience.



Its amazing with the WI, even on a really hot day the car pulls hard and heatsoak doesnt matter anymore. Im happy about that anyway.



Good luck with what ever setup you use.

Excuse me? that 75C intake temps was refering to when my car was parked and heatsoaked after sitting for 30 minutes. Now if you would read on you would see that that I said by the time I was in 4th gear my intake temps had droped to 30C or so. I'm claiming anything any different there than I am here, please watch your self.



By 4th gear they had dropped to 30'c, what about in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, you engine will blow in those gears as well.





you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.



No, I have a good intercooler and a good bumper and I know how to build my car so it won't over heat.



Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.



You have implied several times that you don't need a intercooler. O' and what I do to my car and all my customers cars is my BUSINESS because I do this every day and it's how I make a living.



You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.



And you again imply that a intercooler isn't needed. Other cars can do it because they can survive some predetonation, a rotary can't no matter what you do to it. The only way to keep a rotary engine together is to make it so it'll never knock and water injection by itself isn't going to do it because it comes online a day late and a $1 short of when the engne needs to see cooler air intake temps. A RX-7 isn't just anouther car.

Knife fight, to the death....



Two men enter, One man leaves.

THUNDERDOME!

I mean ROTORDOME!!!

Excuse me? that 75C intake temps was refering to when my car was parked and heatsoaked after sitting for 30 minutes. Now if you would read on you would see that that I said by the time I was in 4th gear my intake temps had droped to 30C or so. I'm claiming anything any different there than I am here, please watch your self.



By 4th gear they had dropped to 30'c, what about in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, you engine will blow in those gears as well.



---- my water injection was running in all of those gears, I have no fear of my car detonating, regardless of what my intake temps show. Remember its the sensor that is heatsoaked..which is why it shows high temps. By the time the air gets into the engine its been cooled. I have no fears of running lean because the water injection will compensate.









you have a magic intercooler. Sorry to dispute you. Putting a large IC infront of the radiator does not affect flow to the radiator, sorry to think it could. I was wrong of course.



No, I have a good intercooler and a good bumper and I know how to build my car so it won't over heat.



----Fair enough ----



Ok I am 33, so dont call me some kid, ok ? What you or anyone else does to your own car is your business. I did not tell anyone to do it and even said a few times that the system needs to be reliable.



You have implied several times that you don't need a intercooler. O' and what I do to my car and all my customers cars is my BUSINESS because I do this every day and it's how I make a living.



---- I Implied nothing, I outwrite SAID it. I said that if you set the water injection up correctly you dont need an IC. I also said that the IC is more reliable and you would have to make sure the WI doesn't fail so under most circumstances it would not be recommended.







You are entitled to your opinion and I will say again it can be done. I think we can quit arguing the point, until someone proves it cant be done I'm going to believe it can, since other cars are able to do it without an IC.



And you again imply that a intercooler isn't needed. Other cars can do it because they can survive some predetonation, a rotary can't no matter what you do to it. The only way to keep a rotary engine together is to make it so it'll never knock and water injection by itself isn't going to do it because it comes online a day late and a $1 short of when the engne needs to see cooler air intake temps. A RX-7 isn't just anouther car.



--- Again you are just speculating. you have no proof, until I see evidence that an rx7 cant do the same thing that other engines do I will give it the benefit of the doubt

--- Again you are just speculating. you have no proof, until I see evidence that an rx7 cant do the same thing that other engines do I will give it the benefit of the doubt





Since you’re the one who is saying it can be done. Make over 400hp running just your water injection and no intercooler for a few months while boosting it and prove me wrong. Then you can see your **** will blow and you'll have your proof at the cost of your $. You can't prove it will work and you are not making enough power to even test your theory, so until it can be proven that it will work stop posting crap saying it will when you don't even know, because some young kid that makes $5.50 a hour doesn't go out and blow his car up that he can't afford the way it is because he listened to you and bought just water injection because it was cheaper than a intercooler.



A good intercooler and water injection has been proven over and over again to be very effective. For being 33 years old and all grown up, you really just don't get it do you.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR

--- Again you are just speculating. you have no proof, until I see evidence that an rx7 cant do the same thing that other engines do I will give it the benefit of the doubt





Since you’re the one who is saying it can be done. Make over 400hp running just your water injection and no intercooler for a few months while boosting it and prove me wrong. Then you can see your **** will blow and you'll have your proof at the cost of your $. You can't prove it will work and you are not making enough power to even test your theory, so until it can be proven that it will work stop posting crap saying it will when you don't even know, because some young kid that makes $5.50 a hour doesn't go out and blow his car up that he can't afford the way it is because he listened to you and bought just water injection because it was cheaper than a intercooler.



---some young kid that makes 5.50 per hour has no business owning an FD. Im allowed to post my opinion and my opinion is that it WILL work. This topic is about water injection and I will not be censored on what I say. I strongly believe in it and I will NOT quit posting my belief just to satisfy you. You dont like it? Too bad.





A good intercooler and water injection has been proven over and over again to be very effective. For being 33 years old and all grown up, you really just don't get it do you.



I believe the IC would make a great back up to the WI, but if you can make the WI Reliable as an IC you will not need an IC. Thats my opinion like it or not.

My sig was from last february ,That was before I had WI, and the reason I got it. I didn't update my sig cause nobody actually reads this forum.

Actually I can sensor you posts since I'm a mod, but it's much better for people to read what you post so they can judge you for what you are. I'm also sure there are a bunch of young kids out there who own FD's that will love your opinion of them.

Actually I can sensor you posts since I'm a mod, but it's much better for people to read what you post so they can judge you for what you are. I'm also sure there are a bunch of young kids out there who own FD's that will love your opinion of them. [/quote]

I dont care if you are MOD. You can't handle anyone else having an opinion that is different than yours.



Your probably one of these 16 year old kids.



All I stated was my opinion, you cant leave it at that. Why not let this post get back on topic and accept the fact that we have different opinions?

Actually I can sensor you posts since I'm a mod, but it's much better for people to read what you post so they can judge you for what you are. I'm also sure there are a bunch of young kids out there who own FD's that will love your opinion of them. [/quote]

I dont care if you are MOD. You can't handle anyone else having an opinion that is different than yours.



Your probably one of these 16 year old kids.



All I stated was my opinion, you cant leave it at that. Why not let this post get back on topic and accept the fact that we have different opinions? [/quote]

The problem is you don't say it's my OPINON that you can POSSIBLY do it. You strait out say it can be done and that it works great. People come here and read the forums to get information and to try and find new ways of improving their cars. If your going to make an OPINION maybe you should state that it hasn't been proven and that you haven't proven that it can work as well. So NOW after baddgering you about all the crap you written it is only your OPINION that it can be done. I can live with that.

I wish Chris would sell me his injector rail. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif

Actually I can sensor you posts since I'm a mod, but it's much better for people to read what you post so they can judge you for what you are. I'm also sure there are a bunch of young kids out there who own FD's that will love your opinion of them. [/quote]

I dont care if you are MOD. You can't handle anyone else having an opinion that is different than yours.



Your probably one of these 16 year old kids.



All I stated was my opinion, you cant leave it at that. Why not let this post get back on topic and accept the fact that we have different opinions? [/quote]

The problem is you don't say it's my OPINON that you can POSSIBLY do it. You strait out say it can be done and that it works great. People come here and read the forums to get information and to try and find new ways of improving their cars. If your going to make an OPINION maybe you should state that it hasn't been proven and that you haven't proven that it can work as well. So NOW after baddgering you about all the crap you written it is only your OPINION that it can be done. I can live with that. [/quote]

That is not true. I NEVER SAID IT WORKS GREAT. I said that it can be done and yes thats my opinion. I believe it can be done, I never said I did it and never said it works great.



You need to learn how to read.

I told you it's going on the Bridge ported race car. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.

[/COLOR] [/quote]

And yes I believe that. Its still my opinion. Its no less my opinion that when you said you need an intercooler with the water injection. You have no more evidence than I do.



Lets end this, its getting petty.

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.

[/COLOR] [/quote]

And yes I believe that. Its still my opinion. Its no less my opinion that when you said you need an intercooler with the water injection. You have no more evidence than I do.



Lets end this, its getting petty. [/quote]

Yes it is getting petty.. and I was boosting 1.6-1.7 kgcm of boost on a T70 fror a while and I KNOW that a intercooler with water injection work. Igy, 1Bad180sx and a few other people over here are also running it. Not to mention the other 100's of people around the USA. There for it is proven.



In your post you stated it like it was a fact, and it is not, that is the point I'm trying to get threw you thick skull that you just can't grasp. Anyone here should be able to see that. Why you can't is somthing that only god can explain.

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.

[/COLOR] [/quote]

And yes I believe that. Its still my opinion. Its no less my opinion that when you said you need an intercooler with the water injection. You have no more evidence than I do.



Lets end this, its getting petty. [/quote]

Yes it is getting petty.. and I was boosting 1.6-1.7 kgcm of boost on a T70 fror a while and I KNOW that a intercooler with water injection work. Igy, 1Bad180sx and a few other people over here are also running it. Not to mention the other 100's of people around the USA. There for it is proven.



In your post you stated it like it was a fact, and it is not, that is the point I'm trying to get threw you thick skull that you just can't grasp. Anyone here should be able to see that. Why you can't is somthing that only god can explain. [/quote]

I know an intercooler is proven to be reliable thats why I said the Water Injection MUST be bullet proof.



Water injection has been proven to run on other cars without the need for an IC, so yes I believe it can be done on an FD too.



I never once said I did it, I stated what I believe to be true, just like you are. Dont like it? TOO BAD.

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.

[/COLOR] [/quote]

And yes I believe that. Its still my opinion. Its no less my opinion that when you said you need an intercooler with the water injection. You have no more evidence than I do.



Lets end this, its getting petty. [/quote]

Yes it is getting petty.. and I was boosting 1.6-1.7 kgcm of boost on a T70 fror a while and I KNOW that a intercooler with water injection work. Igy, 1Bad180sx and a few other people over here are also running it. Not to mention the other 100's of people around the USA. There for it is proven.



In your post you stated it like it was a fact, and it is not, that is the point I'm trying to get threw you thick skull that you just can't grasp. Anyone here should be able to see that. Why you can't is somthing that only god can explain. [/quote]

I know an intercooler is proven to be reliable thats why I said the Water Injection MUST be bullet proof.



Water injection has been proven to run on other cars without the need for an IC, so yes I believe it can be done on an FD too.



I never once said I did it, I stated what I believe to be true, just like you are. Dont like it? TOO BAD. [/quote]

Lucky for me the general person who visits this forum isn't as dense as you because when they read all of this crap I'm sure they will get the point plain and simple. You on the other hand are some where in your own world. Good luck with your water injection with out an intercooler project, and when you prove it to work then post the proof. A few credible eye witnesses would be nice and I'm sure there are a bunch of people here that would love to watch you try and do it with a few good boosted runs on the dyno. Ah, and it you could attempt to make something other than just 300 hp it would be nice too.

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.

[/COLOR] [/quote]

And yes I believe that. Its still my opinion. Its no less my opinion that when you said you need an intercooler with the water injection. You have no more evidence than I do.



Lets end this, its getting petty. [/quote]

Yes it is getting petty.. and I was boosting 1.6-1.7 kgcm of boost on a T70 fror a while and I KNOW that a intercooler with water injection work. Igy, 1Bad180sx and a few other people over here are also running it. Not to mention the other 100's of people around the USA. There for it is proven.



In your post you stated it like it was a fact, and it is not, that is the point I'm trying to get threw you thick skull that you just can't grasp. Anyone here should be able to see that. Why you can't is somthing that only god can explain. [/quote]

I know an intercooler is proven to be reliable thats why I said the Water Injection MUST be bullet proof.



Water injection has been proven to run on other cars without the need for an IC, so yes I believe it can be done on an FD too.



I never once said I did it, I stated what I believe to be true, just like you are. Dont like it? TOO BAD. [/quote]

Lucky for me the general person who visits this forum isn't as dense as you because when they read all of this crap I'm sure they will get the point plain and simple. You on the other hand are some where in your own world. Good luck with your water injection with out an intercooler project, and when you prove it to work then post the proof. A few credible eye witnesses would be nice and I'm sure there are a bunch of people here that would love to watch you try and do it with a few good boosted runs on the dyno. Ah, and it you could attempt to make something other than just 300 hp it would be nice too. [/quote]

Thank you for your kind words. Its no wonder the other forum gets far more traffic than this one.

You posted this. let me break it down for you using RED to higlight some of what you said.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.

[/COLOR] [/quote]

And yes I believe that. Its still my opinion. Its no less my opinion that when you said you need an intercooler with the water injection. You have no more evidence than I do.



Lets end this, its getting petty. [/quote]

Yes it is getting petty.. and I was boosting 1.6-1.7 kgcm of boost on a T70 fror a while and I KNOW that a intercooler with water injection work. Igy, 1Bad180sx and a few other people over here are also running it. Not to mention the other 100's of people around the USA. There for it is proven.



In your post you stated it like it was a fact, and it is not, that is the point I'm trying to get threw you thick skull that you just can't grasp. Anyone here should be able to see that. Why you can't is somthing that only god can explain. [/quote]

I know an intercooler is proven to be reliable thats why I said the Water Injection MUST be bullet proof.



Water injection has been proven to run on other cars without the need for an IC, so yes I believe it can be done on an FD too.



I never once said I did it, I stated what I believe to be true, just like you are. Dont like it? TOO BAD. [/quote]

Lucky for me the general person who visits this forum isn't as dense as you because when they read all of this crap I'm sure they will get the point plain and simple. You on the other hand are some where in your own world. Good luck with your water injection with out an intercooler project, and when you prove it to work then post the proof. A few credible eye witnesses would be nice and I'm sure there are a bunch of people here that would love to watch you try and do it with a few good boosted runs on the dyno. Ah, and it you could attempt to make something other than just 300 hp it would be nice too. [/quote]

Thank you for your kind words. Its no wonder the other forum gets far more traffic than this one. [/quote]

You are more than welcome

bigger forum doesn not equal better forum... I post on both and I find myself reading this one mre for some reason. In my opinon both have alot to offer interms of information, only an idiot would pick steak and beer when he can have both and each one complements the other.



I see your point ZeroBanger, it can be done, it is done,and it does work, BUT it also fails. And the chances of it failing are not acceptable to some people who dont have thousands to spend on repairs.



Race car motors can accept those risks because they rebuild their motors every race, people who use their fd to drive to work every day have slightly different goals.



simply put its possible but chances of falier outweight the gain for people who drive on the streets every day. For me personaly even 10% falier is to high. Neither do I have alot of money (actually I make 2 grand a month and dont pay rent or bills for now so I DO have lot) BUT, I still dont want to spend the money if I dont have to. I rather put it towards a better turbo or a 20b.

no one replied to this is general... the question doesnt really belong anywhere else.. then again this thread is a good location.



ok, guys who run water injection know about making it 50/50 with methanol (windshild washing fluid), and it is suposed to add torque as well as other good things. Now if its ok to spray it in is it ok to put some (a little) like a mug of it in to your tank? i mean either way it ends up in the engine right.... eh guys?



i know it goes thought he fule injectors, so by adding methanol the amount of gas will be less but methanol burns slower giving torque right, so is it a good tradeoff? I am not thinking of it as a regulary thng, just try it once or twice. Will it hurt the engine?

I'm afraid to say my opinion cause Dragqueen will yell at me again, but....



I was using the windshield washer methanol and water. about 50/50, maybe 60 water to 40 meth. Anyway, I noticed that the opening to the manifold (where the cute little butterfly is) had some white spots. It almost looked like lime deposits? I have a fear that methanol corrodes aluminum and rubber and things. I am using 100 pct water now. On days I go to the track I'll either use all water or use some iso.



BTW...when you put fuel additive that keeps it from freezing in the winter, most of the time its methanol. I would guess that in a big 17 gallon tank, putting a little methanol will not corrode anything, but I doubt it would give you any benefit either.



Just my two cents. Let me say for the record that its just my opinion, the little white deposits/corrosion could have been caused by little aliens and I'm not starting a cruisade against methanol. Infact I recommend it. Use it!! its great !!!!!



Ok, I need take some drugs, be back later.

MeOH will attack rubber O rings etc , be careful !!!.

I have one question for Zerobanger. You said you chose wi because you were stuck in traffic, bumper to bumper traffic, one day and it was 100+ degrees right. How would wi help you at all in that situation. If it comes on at 8psi and you are barely moving 5mph how would it lower your temps. That's where your engine might start getting pissed that it has no intercooler if you went that route.



- Hand

As for removal of your IC when using H2O inject. , don't , thats a bad idea . I run the AQUAMIST system 2D together with my custom FMIC and they work very well together , other things to consider are ,

1 . When my engine is idling the turbo is spinning and "boosting" somewhat , the inlet to the IC is always hot and the outlet cold , where would this hot air go if there was no IC?.

2 . I don't inject all of the time , I have mine set up to start at about 12psi , don't our cars use an IC for 10 psi boost when stock?, why differ? , What do you think would happen before injection starts ? , you would also use a lot of water if you have to start injection very early requiring you to carry around a larger heavier tank among other things. Too early injection can also have an adverse effect on turbo spool and overall engine performance?

3. Why not let the IC do its job ?, if the IC "pre-cools" the charge then the WI will do a better job and allow even lower intake temps. , if you think about it the time available for all of this to take place is very small (air moves through an engine PRETTY FAST ) , the more cooling the better , You would also have to again use moor water to get the same change in temperature necessitating a larger HEAVIER water tank , more (larger ) jets and even multiple pumps.Richard lamb at AQUAMIST has recommended a dual pump set up for me and I still have my FMIC !!.

4. don't expect any noticable improvement in boost response / lag time if you remove your IC ( unless it was GROSSLY inadequate to begin with) , most likely it may be just a few RPM,s .In fact it can deteriorate as your engine would be ingesting HOT air before the WI comes on , and as we all know , A cooler charge makes more power 'cause there is more O2 present , the ECU would also limit your ignition advance.Remember you have to go past say 2psi @ 3500RPM before you get to you injection point of 15psi @ 6000RPM .

5 . WI systems do fail or become in operable or even run out of water (as has happened to me) , in such a case you would have no protection.

methanol mixed in the gas will lean out your a/f ratio and you'd have to tune specificly for it. If they sold Methanol here in Japan (unfortunatly they don't) I'd probably put in a 4-5 gallon fuel cell and run a seperate fuel system to feed a 1000cc sub injector in the intake pipe with a AIC or Rebic sub injector controler. Back in the mid 80's when we ran methonal in our IMCA Modified class dirt track car running at 13.5:1 compression threw a modified Holly 4 barrel carb the intake manifold would form about 1/8" of ice on it by the end of a race. Very cool stuff.. Makes pretty blue flamage as well..

water injection does not lower your temps when your in bumper to bumper, but as soon as I hit boost, even if my intake temps are 85C (based on the sensor) the are going into the engine is much much cooler because of the water.



I have alot of web pages that did tests with turbo M3's and other cars. They did dyno runs back to back with the WI on and with it off. Also they did drag strip runs. They showed no heatsoak with the WI on.



So in otherwords, heat soak exists in terms of what the gauges show, but its not relevant because the air is much colder when it gets into the engine, regardless of what the stupid sensor said.



Also, the intercooler does nothing when sitting in bumper to bumper traffic either. Infact the IC takes a long time to cool down from heatsoak from that situation.

If that's the case, then my air intake temps are "magical" since I never see over 47 in bumper/bumper traffic. When I had my SMIC, it would SOAR to 70+ no problem.

lol

under the same conditions my car was under, a FMIC car would show the same heatsoak. its the sensor under the manifold that gets heatsoaked. Yes i know the smic will be heatsoaked too and take longer to cool down than the FMIC. Im talking about the sensor.

but if your intake temp are always cooler from the intercooler doing it's job then the intake manifold won't heat soak as bad and the sensor will not be affected as much by that heat soak. If your intercooler is in the engine compartment then your pretty much screwed and it's going to heat soak to hell and back, but if you have a good front mount it will do its job even when sitting in traffic or idling in a parking lot. Like I said earlier on, let you car heat soak and feel the in and out end tanks you'll notice a huge difference in temp.