Ex temp will go down with the water injection. The Denser ex gases that now have water vapor in them will help to push the turbo wheel and cause it to spool faster since it is being hit with more inertia

So is there a noticable difference? From data logs can you observe a given boost pressure being achieved at lower rpm? Please give us some numbers to help put it into perspective.

thanks Dragon. I have a question. Say you are tuning a new rebuild engine. You start rich like you said and work your way down watchung the temperatures. Now say you hit the sweet spot. Now you want to add water injection (someone above said tune first then add water injection to avoid hydrolock and other probelms) so you add it and it drops your temps. Now 2 questions. One being I assume you can cut down on fule now since water injection is cooling things quite a bit, right? And two, with water injection which is a better way to controll it, with a sensor that monitors boost, or with one that monitors the temperature in the intake manafold?

I'd tune with just gas and no water injection to around 1kgcm or so, then put int the aquamist kit and have it start to inject water at around .8 kgcm of boost using the .7 jet that comes with the kit. Your O2 readings won't change with the water injection and you can still tune fine with it on or off even though the ex temps will drop some. How you do it all depends on what final boost your going to run and what turbo you have, intercooler etc...

its simple. You have 2 options.



1) tune for water injection.

2) Tune for your IC.



For option 1, You need to realize that with the Water Injection on, the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. you dont need it except if the water injection fails. At any point in this car if you only tune for water injection and it fails, you are screwed. its very possible to have a very reliable water injection system, but you need to make sure its reliable.



for option 2, this is how I am currently set up. My car has enough fuel for 16 psi, but my Blitz smic is small so without the WI I could likely only support 14 psi or so. What happens if I got a bad tank of gas? I'd likely detonate. So I only ran about 12. Now I dont need to worry. I now run 14 psi on pump gas with no issues. I figure the chances of a bad tank of gas and water injection failure are nill.



BTW...I wouldnot run more than 14 psi on stock twins. If it was not for that I'd easily be running around 16 psi on pump gas.



Later.

There arn't 2 choices. You NEED to run your intercooler with the water injection. your intercooler cools the air and the water injection further cools the air a little, but cools the internals of the engine a lot. The water injection doesn't do **** until you acive a set boost pressure and before that the intercooler needs to be doing it's job. As boost rises the air charge gets hotter so even with the intercooler you outlet air temps will still increase. The water injection will help get them back down to what the were at the lower boost levels. Water injection doesn't replace the intercooler, it just makes things even better.

You do not need an intercooler if you have water injection. sorry, Im running around with sub ambient air temps, my puny blitz SMIC does ****.



I see lots of cars that run without an IC (MR2, etc) an rx7 is no exception. I will someday run only on water injection.

Your engine and your $, so you can go ahead and do that if you'd like to, but I would recommend perhaps you should just go out and get a real intercooler before you even think about putting in water injection. [/quote]

dude, I have had my water injection for about 2 months of daily driving, I have had my intercooler for almost 2 years.



Your opinion is one thing, but dont tell me how to set up my car. An intercooler is only a a back up for the water injection because its reliable. It serves NO other purpose. its not that hard dude.

I'll guarantee you that your puny blitz intercooler as you state is doing something. With out it you'd probably see +20'c intake air temps. Anyway it's your engine and your $, so you can go ahead and do that if you'd like to, but I would recommend perhaps you should just go out and get a real intercooler before you even think about putting in water injection.



And those lots of cars you see running around with out intercoolers knock one and keep running. RX-7's tend not to survive a good knock, so it is an exception.

Your engine and your $, so you can go ahead and do that if you'd like to, but I would recommend perhaps you should just go out and get a real intercooler before you even think about putting in water injection. [/quote]

dude, I have had my water injection for about 2 months of daily driving, I have had my intercooler for almost 2 years.



Your opinion is one thing, but dont tell me how to set up my car. An intercooler is only a a back up for the water injection because its reliable. It serves NO other purpose. its not that hard dude. [/quote]

Ok, and how much power are you pushing and what turbo are you runing.



Edit. I saw your sig.. hmm two craked apex seals eh. an you were pushing a little over 300 before that. Umhmm I don't think you need to even worry about water injection yet. You see this is the single turbo forum where most people are looking for over 400 hp+. I've had my water injection for over a year now and I've been buiding 13B's now for 5 years and I was boosting 1.6 with a T-70. But I see you know best..

Be nice Chris. Opinions are allowed. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif

But very bad suggestions from inexperienced people that will cost other people $ are not. The only thing that will replace a good intercooler is if you’re running Methanol Alcohol.



If you have a bad intercooler then get a good one before you even worry about water injection.

is methanol ahcohol street legal? not that it would make a difference but just qurious.



Also does it put out more polution then gasoline? (as far as I know alcohol burns cleaner then gasoline but not sure about METHANOL alcohol)



And does running methanol alcohol take more toll on your engine then gasoline?

You need approximately 2 times more fuel going in to the engine as gasoline to run it. This mean you need one hell of a fuel system to run it. You'd need to double the injector sizes and get a huge fuel pump to feed the volume of fuel you need. The exhaust burns the **** out of your eyes, water will drip out of you exhaust from combustion and your intake manifold will form ice on it https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif



Not sure about emissions, but damn it smells sweet... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif



If you run premix with it you should be fine, but last time I ever bought any in the states (about 12 years ago) it was $2.50 a gallon and you will get 1/2 the gas mileage you get now, so I don't think it would be considered streetable..



and unfortunatly we can get it here in Japan.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif

You need approximately 2 times more fuel going in to the engine as gasoline to run it. This mean you need one hell of a fuel system to run it. You'd need to double the injector sizes and get a huge fuel pump to feed the volume of fuel you need. The exhaust burns the **** out of your eyes, water will drip out of you exhaust from combustion and your intake manifold will form ice on it https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif



Not sure about emissions, but damn it smells sweet... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif



If you run premix with it you should be fine, but last time I ever bought any in the states (about 12 years ago) it was $2.50 a gallon and you will get 1/2 the gas mileage you get now, so I don't think it would be considered streetable..



and unfortunatly we can get it here in Japan.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif [/quote]

thank you dragon for confirming the fact that on rx-7's running only water injection is not a good idea. I dont like it when people hype about things such as water injection, and make it sound like it will solve ALL your problems. Sure its a good system and i would consider buying/making one, but my money will be going towards a good intercooler beforehand.



humm gtr core looks nice https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

excuse me but I have worked on my car for the last 2 years, nearly every day. I dont need you calling me "inexperienced". I did mention that the water injection Must be set up properly and be fool proof. Infact I did not suggest that anyone run without the intercooler, I simply said if the water inection is fool proof and you have enough water, you dont need an intercooler and thats a fact.



Even if you tune for water injection and keep your intercooler, if your water injection fails you will likely pop your motor.



My intercooler I would also no say its "bad". Its does have the least amount of Lag, and lowest pressure drop of all the IC's. with that, it has the least amount of cooling surface area.



The only thing the intercooler does is cool the intake temps. Water injection will cool the intake temps better than an Intercooler. I recommend that most should keep the intercooler because water injection is not as reliable as the IC.



My plan in the future is to have a pipe fabricated to fit the lower/upper hose and I will have 6-8 different size misting nozzles at different locations, a redundant system with 2 seperate water pumps, etc. If one pump fails the other will be activated. Anyway, its a while away.



If you want to keep arguing or slamming me with insults I'll match them. its your move "Dragon".

does taking out the ic realy cut lag alot? I have been told it is not significant.



also, this is just an idea but... when there is a pressure drop things get cold. Thats how fridges work, by compressing a gas in to a fluid and then spraying it out of a smapp hole, the pressure drops, form liquid to gas = evaporation = like poaring alcohol on your hand and it suddenly gets really cold. Anyway, why not spray in say methanol in to the intake manifold. It wont be crazy like running fully on it, but it does burn just fine and the expantion will drop the temratures dramaticaly. if done with a 1/4 hp compressor and good heat exanger idle temps as low as -50C .... anyone think this is a good idea?

Damn, I've been challenged to a dual.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683329.gif



#1 Excuse me, I guess I forgot to mention the other 17 years of building piston engine before the 5 years of working on rotarys.



#2 you said "the intercooler is doing nothing more than causing pressure drop and lag. You don’t need it except if the water injection fails” and you said "An intercooler is only a back up for the water injection because it’s reliable. It serves NO other purpose." Sound to me like you telling people they don't need an intercooler in those statements. I guess they are supposed to run around sucking in 80'c + intake air temp all day long 99% of the time till the water injection comes on at what ever boost you have it set for. WOW... that should make lots of HP and have a great power curve. NOT!





#3 If you use the water injection to boost really high you'll can blow you motor if it fails, but most people use it as a safety net for reliability to keep the engine together and keep it clean inside. It's also nice to have because the second you over boost from something failing like a vacuum hose it can keep your engine together.



#4 you said this about your intercooler "I’m running around with sub ambient air temps, my puny blitz SMIC does ****." Sounds to me like you said your intercooler pretty much sucks. Try taking it off and driving around and see what your intake air temp goes to.



#5 my intercooler drops my air intake temps buy 40-50'c of what they would be with out it, I'd love to see water injection do that. As a matter of fact I have a friend in the shop next door running a Tec III on his BP FC and we were looking at his data logs last night. With a really good intercooler and Aquamist water injection system running a 1.0 jet, his intake air temps went from 37'c to start with up to around 58'c at the end of 3r gear on a all out run boosting 1.3kgcm. Gee, I wonder what they would have climbed to with out the intercooler.



If you respond in any way answer this question, how are you measuring your air intake temps?



Your one of those people who thinks he knows everything, but only knows enough to be dangerous. Also, I don't need to fight since I'm a mod and I can just delete your posts if I want to, but if you want to continue with your inconsistent statements, half truths and argue then shoot.

Way back when some years back I was 100% anti-water injection. I felt it was fine for WRC cars and what they need from their engines, but for a street car (especially those below 400hp or so) it was a waste of time. When I first met 1bad180sx two years ago when I was on vacation we spoke at length about this. Me - against it, him - for it. My previous "experiences" with it was with people that used it for covering up bad tuning. That formed my opinions on it early on as a cheap band-aid solution to a far greater problem.



These days I find the idea growing on me. Using it to make things better after the tuning is done. Not simply to be able to raise boost for more power, but for a reliability mod to a high tuned engine. No engine built for high performance purposes is "bulletproof". No matter how well built. Everything that can be done to reasonably lower the chances of a bad thing happening to a good engine is worth the effort for some people.

I love the idea of water injection and plan on running a similar system that all the Japan Forum guys run. However, IMHO there is no substitute for a good intercooler. Reason being...we drive our cars on the street. i.e. our cars spend most of it's time at below boost levels 0 psi and into vacuum. If water injection is turned on ONLY when boosting...what happens when your cruising at 3000 rpms and decide to punch it? Guarantee you my air intake temps are lower than a car that runs only water injection.



If we all drove race cars that ONLY see a quarter mile track...I'd be the first to only run water injection and no Intercooler...but I drive my 7 to work, take myself and the wife on dates, race the occasional GT-R...etc.

and which one would that be?









I couldnt have put it better, great words.









lol, I have though wi replaced the ic at first but after I gave it some though it really doesnt.



"I guess they are supposed to run around sucking in 80'c + intake air temp all day long 99% of the time till the water injection comes on "



thats exactly why I chose to have both, ic is not only a safety net, it really does make a difference, and to run wi all the time boost or not, well it would get really bothersome to keep refilling the water tank.

were all runing the aquamist S1 Race system, you don't really need the mapped system with a rotory because we're not usually boosting a lot so the basic system will cover it. If you were running some crazy boost then it would be nice to have the mapped system to add some more water as you went to the higher boost levels to keep things cool in the engine and prevent hot spots that will cause detonation.

City driving water injection armed:



On a day where the temp is 38C during my regular driving pattern in the city I will have 23-32 intake temps on average with extremes of 19C when im heavily accelerating to maybe 36C if I have not hit boost in a while (boost activates the water injection). On the highway I find it roughly the same, if Im cruising steady without hitting boost my intake temps will rise.



City driving without water injection on a 38C day my intake temps will rise to 60c. On the highway on a 38C day my intake temps will be 45-50.



This represents and extreme in temps, but shows the differences that water injection can provide.



I have a dual stage set up one nozzle in my IC end tank and one in my intake elbow near the manifold that is pointed toward the incoming air. comes in in full at 8 PSI

I've found with my intercooler, that at idle my intake temps are roughly around 50-60c in the hot Okinawan summer heat(95f+ with extreme humidity). As soon as I start moving(not boosting), they'll drop down to the low 40's. If I boost at all, my intake temps fall lower than 40c.



All these temps are taken during city driving...no highways in Okinawa(except for the e-way I guess)

So you’re saying that on a day where the ambient air temp is 38'c (100'f) your intake air temps are 23-32'c (72-91'f) with your water injection armed during normal daily driving, but yet your water injection doesn't come on line till 8psi... WTF, your water injection #1 shouldn't be doing anything normal driving because your not boosting so its still off and #2 you must have the worlds greatest blitz intercooler with a/c capability if you hitting 9-28'f cooler than ambient air temps #3 you must have your turbo and intercooler pipes made out of the **** they use on the space shuttle to not have any heat soak #4 you must have a modified water cooled blitz intercooler that has a constant flow of ice water going to it or #5 you need to quit looking at the thermometer you've got stuck in your a/c vent because that's not your engine gets it air from.



In both your situations, one with water injection on, and the one with it off during normal daily driving around the city etc you should be having the same readings because it's still off until you hit 8psi of boost and I REALLLLLLY doubt your driving around in boost over 8psi 100% of the time in the city.



In your first statement alone it's obvious you’re full of it; let’s break it down for you. Real quick (I already hit part of it up above) you say

Ok, it’s 100'F outside guys





I haven't been in boost for a while, but because I have water injection installed even though it hasn't come on. I'm still running 2'c (4'f) lower than ambient air temps.



Also you still never said what you’re using to measure air temps?

Where are you measuring these my car is blessed by god air temps?

What size jet are you using that comes on at 8psi?



I personally think, well actually know you just pulled a bunch of numbers out of your ass or copied and pasted off some a rice boy site.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub..._DIR#>/dry.png wouldnt be surprised. Then again what do I know...... it seems little fishy even to me though...

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png Leave me out of it! I'm reading with interest the little bitch battle thats going on! I find it funny.



Dan

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/happy.png my money is on Dragon, I know for a fact that he knows what he is talking about.

I've been reading up on WI for the past few months, and from the people that I have seen use it, they all say they use it to 1 raise boost, and 2 to be a safety measure. Out of all those people every last one of them had an intercooler, and said they would never just run WI. Just think about it if you are stuck in traffic at idle your temps are going to soar. And from everything I've heard, intercoolers really do not cause any significant amount of lag. All the pipes already have air in them it's not a vacuum so it doesn't take any time at all to pressurize them. All you have to do is shoot the air through them. As far as the methanol comment, I've talked to several other people who either run a mixture of methanol and water or full methanol. They all have great things to say about it. It further cools the intake charge, and it raises the octane. But again these people all have IC's wonder why?



- Hand

experience talks for itself, it is evident that wi doesnt eliminate the need for the ic.



ps: Is it just me or does anyone else thinks this thread needs to be a sticky https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

Chris I just started to play with My water injection. I was runnning 18-20 PSI on 93 with octane boost and set the trigger for the WI at 15 PSI. My AFR is very rich still 10.5 AVG and I felt the car bog when going from 2nd to third shifting at 8500 RPM.



I have faith in the Aquamist but am worried if I lean out the AFR and the WI fails I am in a bit of trouble to say the least.



What is a safe AFR with the water injection running and if I set the trigger @15PSI should I only change the fuel in the cells from 15 PSI and up?



By the way Your T-66 maps on the datalogit group with a bit of modifying are working great to say the least with the big T-72. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png





Steve

Look...



Im going to say one more time. There are other cars that can eliminate the IC by use of the WI. The only reason its dangerous do do so is because the WI is not dependable. The key is to build a super dependable system.



Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.



Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.



We can move on to another topic or rather keep this subject on topic.

Look...



Im going to say one more time. There are other cars that can eliminate the IC by use of the WI. The only reason its dangerous do do so is because the WI is not dependable. The key is to build a super dependable system.



Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.



Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.



We can move on to another topic or rather keep this subject on topic. [/quote]

1.6 kgcm (23.5 psi) boost and then later I tunned to 1.7 kgcm (25 psi) of boost with my T-70 on pump gas. This is with a 4 core border racing intercooler and I was running the water injection with a .7 aquamist jet and was showing no knock what's so ever in my datalogs. This was also tunned to around 11-11.2:1 A/F ratio from around 5000 rpm up and .4 kgcm and up. The engine finaly went when the front main bearing came apart.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.png I would NOT ever try to do this with water injection alone.



Here is a great fuel/hp calculator that will also factor in water injection as well..



http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/...urbo_calc.shtml

Sweet.. lol, that's actually my T70 map.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/cool.png Tune it to 11:1 A/F ratio on the top end and you should be good to go with that ignition map.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/BURNOUT.gif and the water injection..

Look...



Im going to say one more time. There are other cars that can eliminate the IC by use of the WI. The only reason its dangerous do do so is because the WI is not dependable. The key is to build a super dependable system.



Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.



Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.



We can move on to another topic or rather keep this subject on topic. [/quote]

1.6 kgcm (23.5 psi) boost and then later I tunned to 1.7 kgcm (25 psi) of boost with my T-70 on pump gas. This is with a 4 core border racing intercooler and I was running the water injection with a .7 aquamist jet and was showing no knock what's so ever in my datalogs. This was also tunned to around 11-11.2:1 A/F ratio from around 5000 rpm up and .4 kgcm and up. The engine finaly went when the front main bearing came apart.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.png I would NOT ever try to do this with water injection alone.



Here is a great fuel/hp calculator that will also factor in water injection as well..



http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/...urbo_calc.shtml [/quote]

Thats cool, but a FMIC that big blocks the radiator. All you need is enough water and a reliable system.



Yesterday I was driving and went into boost and my indicator did not light up. I blew a fuse. Then later in the day I did it again.



So im going to place the relay and other electrical stuff in the cabin for more reliablilty.



I would not recommend to anyone to just remove the IC and use WI. My only point is YES you can do it, you need ENOUGH water and for it to be reliable. The intercooler makes a great back up device, I just fear the water injection failing.



You are entitled to your opinion but i'll say again its very possible, just needs to be done right.



OH yea, and remove the water injection and lets see you run 25 PSI on pump gas on that IC.

I guarantee you with my FEED 4 core that I get just as good if not better water temps than guys running a stock mount intercooler. I NEVER see water temps above 90...****, for the longest time ran on only the medium fan setting(bad relay). When I boost, my water temps go DOWN...not up. It's not the IC up front that's the problem, it's the fan temp settings(81, 83, 85 for me)



My thoughts are simple. I can cruise around town all day with 40 c intake temps and when I boost, the temps go down. They don't plummet like they would if I had WI, but they're within safe levels. No SMIC will get the intake temps at cruising speeds I do.



Also, WI seems to be a substitute for FUEL, not a substitute for an intercooler. The reason we can run 20+ psi and pump gas is because of WI. If we were to have Race fuel handy and at a cheap price...I wouldn't even consider WI. Look at Ray(PFS) who tunes his T-51rKai(I think) to 2.25 kilos boost. No water injection, just good race fuel. All WI does is lower your EGTs. We all know High EGTs cause detonation. So we either add Race Fuel or WI to combat this.



I think the optimum setup would be a good ass intercooler with Water injection. You get the best of both worlds.

test

ZeroBanger,Sep 7 2003, 06:11 PM

Nobody has even attempted this because water injection is VERY new to the rotary powered cars.



But WI in NOT new technology.... People have been using it for YEARS and YEARS. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif



ZeroBanger

Why do you think RiceRacing can run 22 PSI on pump gas with the WI? There is not an intercooler on the planet that would allow him to run pump gas with that much boost.



This is a mapping issue. The problem is that you get people that can map piston engines really well, but a rotary is different in the fact that people are still learning them. Before the FD was easier in the fact you just play with the dizzy and fuel. Now with all this electronics and **** you have work out. Wastegate duty, ignition, fuelling and then you have to know the ECU that the CUSTOMER is using. And I don't just mean changing the odd setting, you have to know that when you change this bit, this other bit changes.



And with all the different ECU's about you would know that each one does it differently.



Dan

there is no question that if you are a pro racer using methanol WI is pointless, I agree. But then again, Ray doesn't have an intercooler either.



As far as your water temps, move to northern cali and on a 100 degree day climb the elevations like we do. Sometimes the elevation is for 2 or 3 miles. With a FMIC you will be very close to overheating, I dont care what your fans come on at, mine come on at 90.





I also agree that a SMIC will not get the intake temps you do, but i also assure you that If I took my BLITZ SMIC and put a large FMIC I would not see any difference in intake temps EXCEPT when I have cruise control set on the highway and I never boost.



Water injection is too efficient. The other day I was driving around with 19C intake temps, it cant get much lower than that.

I never said that WI is new technology, I said its new to the rotary community. Only a few of us have it, but its growing now.