Turbo Terminology Explained...
06-06-2003, 04:43 PM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: PA Pittsburgh
Posts: 575
All of this info is just great i have another question thou. What would you guy's consider the largest street-able turbo. And what about doing somthing custom like taking a HKS T51R Kai and turning it into a ball bearing? Is there any turbo that is better than a ball bearing?
07-19-2003, 04:43 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 397
Compressor A/R is determined by dividing the radius of the compressor housing by the smallest diameter of the compressor outlet . Exhaust housing A/R is determined by dividing the radius of the exhaust by the smallest diameter of the exhaust inlet . As the A/R numerically increases so does the housings ability to induce/exduce a specific volume of air. Lag and effective power range will also be affected by A/R changes. Look at the A/R pic below.
formula for determining trim
compressor side
[(minor wheel diameter)x(minor wheel diameter) / (major wheel diameter)x (major wheel diameter)] x 100= compressor wheel trim
exhaust side
[(minor wheel diameter)(minor wheel diameter)/(minor wheel diameter)(minor wheel diameter)] x 100 = turbine wheel trim
T04E 60
[(2.290)(2.290)/(2.950)(2.950)] x 100= trim
(5.2441/8.7025) x 100= trim
.6026 x 100 = trim
60= trim
formula for determining trim
compressor side
[(minor wheel diameter)x(minor wheel diameter) / (major wheel diameter)x (major wheel diameter)] x 100= compressor wheel trim
exhaust side
[(minor wheel diameter)(minor wheel diameter)/(minor wheel diameter)(minor wheel diameter)] x 100 = turbine wheel trim
T04E 60
[(2.290)(2.290)/(2.950)(2.950)] x 100= trim
(5.2441/8.7025) x 100= trim
.6026 x 100 = trim
60= trim
08-07-2003, 11:25 AM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toledo, OH
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by MazdaEnthused' date='Aug 5 2003, 05:29 PM
so when someone says they have a T-91 turbo what does the T and what does the 91 Mean?
Originally Posted by 93 R1' date='Apr 6 2003, 10:28 PM
-TD05, GT2530, T78, T72... What do those terms mean?
There're two commonly used types of turbos, Mitsubishi and Garrett turbos. There are others but as not common...
Mitsu and Garrett turbos have totally different designations.
-Mitsu turbos:
Mitsubishi uses TD04, TD05, TD06, TD07, TD08...to designates turbo housing.
For example, TD05H-16G 7cm^2 is a turbo with,
TD05 turbine housing with 'H' style turbine housing/wheel. There are S, SH, H... style of turbine wheel/housing.
16G compressor wheel. 16 is the size of the wheel, 1.83 inducer, 2.37 exducer. G is the style of wheel (alternating height of blades). C, B, T style wheel's blades have the same height. Blades are always evenly spaced, but the number of and pitch of the blades can change between models.
8cm^2 is referring to exhaust discharge area in the turbine housing. More specifically, it is the cross-sectional area of the smallest intake passage in the turbine housing before the passage spreads around the circumferential volute that leads to the turbine wheel. Very similar to Garrett turbo's A/R. The smaller number means faster spool-up but more back pressure at higher rpm. Bigger number means longer spool up but less back pressure, thus more top end power.
Greddy modifies Mitsu turbos. Bisides, TD04, TD05, TD06, TD07 turbos, Greddy also makes hybrid turbo, T67 is TD07 compressor and TD06 turbine, same turbo as TD06SH-25G. T78 is the compressor of TD08 and turbine of TD07, T88 uses compressor and turbine from TD08.
-Garrett Turbos:
Garrett basically has two lines of turbos. The older T series turbos and new ball bearing GT series turbos.
T family has T22, T25, T28, T3, T350, T370, T4, To4B, To4E, TS04, To4R ...
The new line of GT turbos are ball bearing, GT20, GT22, GT25, GT30, GT35, GT40, GT45, GT50... GT turbos produce slightly more hp then older T series turbos with the same number. Turbonetics and many domestic makers use T series turbos. A T3/To4E 60 T .63A/R is a hybrid turbo with T3 turbine, To4E compressor, 60 Trim compressor wheel and .63 A/R. Wheel "trim" refers to the squared ratio of the smaller diameter divided by the larger diameter times 100. Generally, the larger the trim number the more flow the wheel has. For compressor wheels , larger trim tends to mean slightly lower efficiency. For "families" of turbine wheels (those with the same inducer diameter), larger trim usually means better flow with less backpressure but longer spool time. A/R is a ratio of the exhaust discharge area vs the distance from the center of turbine wheel to the center of the discharge area. The so called "T-series': T60, T61, T66, T70, T72, T76... are T4 turbos as well. The number means the compressor inducer size. ie: T76 means it has 76mm compressor inducer.
HKS uses Garrett turbos. HKS GT series turbos use Garrett GT's turbine with T's compressor. For example, HKS GT 2530 is GT25 .64A/R turbine with T3 63 trim compressor.
There're two commonly used types of turbos, Mitsubishi and Garrett turbos. There are others but as not common...
Mitsu and Garrett turbos have totally different designations.
-Mitsu turbos:
Mitsubishi uses TD04, TD05, TD06, TD07, TD08...to designates turbo housing.
For example, TD05H-16G 7cm^2 is a turbo with,
TD05 turbine housing with 'H' style turbine housing/wheel. There are S, SH, H... style of turbine wheel/housing.
16G compressor wheel. 16 is the size of the wheel, 1.83 inducer, 2.37 exducer. G is the style of wheel (alternating height of blades). C, B, T style wheel's blades have the same height. Blades are always evenly spaced, but the number of and pitch of the blades can change between models.
8cm^2 is referring to exhaust discharge area in the turbine housing. More specifically, it is the cross-sectional area of the smallest intake passage in the turbine housing before the passage spreads around the circumferential volute that leads to the turbine wheel. Very similar to Garrett turbo's A/R. The smaller number means faster spool-up but more back pressure at higher rpm. Bigger number means longer spool up but less back pressure, thus more top end power.
Greddy modifies Mitsu turbos. Bisides, TD04, TD05, TD06, TD07 turbos, Greddy also makes hybrid turbo, T67 is TD07 compressor and TD06 turbine, same turbo as TD06SH-25G. T78 is the compressor of TD08 and turbine of TD07, T88 uses compressor and turbine from TD08.
-Garrett Turbos:
Garrett basically has two lines of turbos. The older T series turbos and new ball bearing GT series turbos.
T family has T22, T25, T28, T3, T350, T370, T4, To4B, To4E, TS04, To4R ...
The new line of GT turbos are ball bearing, GT20, GT22, GT25, GT30, GT35, GT40, GT45, GT50... GT turbos produce slightly more hp then older T series turbos with the same number. Turbonetics and many domestic makers use T series turbos. A T3/To4E 60 T .63A/R is a hybrid turbo with T3 turbine, To4E compressor, 60 Trim compressor wheel and .63 A/R. Wheel "trim" refers to the squared ratio of the smaller diameter divided by the larger diameter times 100. Generally, the larger the trim number the more flow the wheel has. For compressor wheels , larger trim tends to mean slightly lower efficiency. For "families" of turbine wheels (those with the same inducer diameter), larger trim usually means better flow with less backpressure but longer spool time. A/R is a ratio of the exhaust discharge area vs the distance from the center of turbine wheel to the center of the discharge area. The so called "T-series': T60, T61, T66, T70, T72, T76... are T4 turbos as well. The number means the compressor inducer size. ie: T76 means it has 76mm compressor inducer.
HKS uses Garrett turbos. HKS GT series turbos use Garrett GT's turbine with T's compressor. For example, HKS GT 2530 is GT25 .64A/R turbine with T3 63 trim compressor.
09-04-2003, 02:28 PM
#36
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Somewhere in California
Posts: 28
Hi Guys,
I thought I would contribute a little something to this thread. I did a short writeup of how to read a compressor map a long time ago on another website I used to go to. I have the book that was mentioned above "Maximum Boost" and that was where I learned how to read compressor maps.
Here is the original thread that I posted it in.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=142398
I thought I would contribute a little something to this thread. I did a short writeup of how to read a compressor map a long time ago on another website I used to go to. I have the book that was mentioned above "Maximum Boost" and that was where I learned how to read compressor maps.
Here is the original thread that I posted it in.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=142398
Hey everybody, I was bored so I though I would type up a brief Topic on how to read a compressor map. I know this has been covered before but the threads have already been archived and some people (my self included) are unable to go back and add/change some of the info. so here it is, hopefully I remembered to add all the important information.
HOW-TO-READ A COMPRESSOR MAP
using a map of a T04E 60 trim I will explain all the numbers on the map
1-left side, PRESSURE RATIO
(14.7 + amount of boost) / 14.7 = PR
so to figure out the PR for 8 PSI
(14.7 + 8) / 14.7 = 1.54 PR
2-bottom side, AIRFLOW RATE UNDER BOOST (LB/MIN on this map)
Most methods of calculation your engine's airflow rate will give you the answer in cubic feet per minute (CFM). However most compressor maps measure airflow rate in pounds per minute (LB/MIN). As some of you may know the weight of air varies with the temperature. To convert CFM to LB/MIN use the following numbers.
@ 48 degrees F : (CFM * 0.078125) = LB/MIN
@112 degrees F : (CFM * 0.070318) = LB/MIN
@175 degrees F : (CFM * 0.06251) = LB/MIN
Say for example our airflow rate is 500 CFM , and the temperature is 112 degrees F.
(500 * 0.070318) = 35.16 LB/MIN
*For those of you that know anything about ideal gas law, if you know a better way of explaining how to convert CFM to LB/MIN, your input would be appreciated. But please explain it in "laymans" terms, so that everyone can get a grasp on it.
3-dotted line on far left side of "ovals", SURGE LIMIT
It is important to try and keep yourself on the right side of this dotted line whenever possible. If you fall to the left of this dotted line you will experience compressor surge. This type of compressor surge will occur when there is too much boost, but not enough airflow through the system, usually this is between idle and the point at which full boost is reached. The chirping sound that can be heard is a result of the oscillating air. This sound is often described as a "Snakelike" sound or a che-che-che sound.
*staying in the "surge limit" area for too long could possibly damage your turbo.
4-numbers on far right, 46,020, 69,640, 83,972 etc, COMPRESSOR RPM
This is RPM at which the compressor fans will be turning. an average RPM is between 90,000 and 130,000. The line that branches out from each of these numbers that goes towards the surge limit line shows you the RPM range of the compressor fan across the entire compressor map.
5-78%,75%, 74%, COMPRESSOR EFFICIENCY
This is related to the temp of air and how much it is being heated up as it is being compressed by the compressor. A low number (60%) means that the compressor is heating the air more a high number (78%) means the air is not heated as much when it is compressed.
6-"Ovals"
I you look closely you will see that the compressor efficiency numbers usually sit right on top of one of these Oval lines. These Ovals show you the boundaries of the compressor efficiency at the different percentiles. Think of it as a topography map that shows you different elevations or changes in elevations. The innermost Oval on the sample T04 E 60" is not labeled but it is probably 79% or 80%, so any where inside that Oval and you would be operating in the 80% range of that compressor.
--changed # 1 (pressure ratios) 29 Mar 02
--changed # 2 (airflow rate) 29 Mar 02
--added # 2 (airflow rate) 13 Apr 02
--added # 3 (surge limit line) 13 Apr 02
--changed # 5 (compressor efficiency) 08 Jan 03
HOW-TO-READ A COMPRESSOR MAP
using a map of a T04E 60 trim I will explain all the numbers on the map
1-left side, PRESSURE RATIO
(14.7 + amount of boost) / 14.7 = PR
so to figure out the PR for 8 PSI
(14.7 + 8) / 14.7 = 1.54 PR
2-bottom side, AIRFLOW RATE UNDER BOOST (LB/MIN on this map)
Most methods of calculation your engine's airflow rate will give you the answer in cubic feet per minute (CFM). However most compressor maps measure airflow rate in pounds per minute (LB/MIN). As some of you may know the weight of air varies with the temperature. To convert CFM to LB/MIN use the following numbers.
@ 48 degrees F : (CFM * 0.078125) = LB/MIN
@112 degrees F : (CFM * 0.070318) = LB/MIN
@175 degrees F : (CFM * 0.06251) = LB/MIN
Say for example our airflow rate is 500 CFM , and the temperature is 112 degrees F.
(500 * 0.070318) = 35.16 LB/MIN
*For those of you that know anything about ideal gas law, if you know a better way of explaining how to convert CFM to LB/MIN, your input would be appreciated. But please explain it in "laymans" terms, so that everyone can get a grasp on it.
3-dotted line on far left side of "ovals", SURGE LIMIT
It is important to try and keep yourself on the right side of this dotted line whenever possible. If you fall to the left of this dotted line you will experience compressor surge. This type of compressor surge will occur when there is too much boost, but not enough airflow through the system, usually this is between idle and the point at which full boost is reached. The chirping sound that can be heard is a result of the oscillating air. This sound is often described as a "Snakelike" sound or a che-che-che sound.
*staying in the "surge limit" area for too long could possibly damage your turbo.
4-numbers on far right, 46,020, 69,640, 83,972 etc, COMPRESSOR RPM
This is RPM at which the compressor fans will be turning. an average RPM is between 90,000 and 130,000. The line that branches out from each of these numbers that goes towards the surge limit line shows you the RPM range of the compressor fan across the entire compressor map.
5-78%,75%, 74%, COMPRESSOR EFFICIENCY
This is related to the temp of air and how much it is being heated up as it is being compressed by the compressor. A low number (60%) means that the compressor is heating the air more a high number (78%) means the air is not heated as much when it is compressed.
6-"Ovals"
I you look closely you will see that the compressor efficiency numbers usually sit right on top of one of these Oval lines. These Ovals show you the boundaries of the compressor efficiency at the different percentiles. Think of it as a topography map that shows you different elevations or changes in elevations. The innermost Oval on the sample T04 E 60" is not labeled but it is probably 79% or 80%, so any where inside that Oval and you would be operating in the 80% range of that compressor.
--changed # 1 (pressure ratios) 29 Mar 02
--changed # 2 (airflow rate) 29 Mar 02
--added # 2 (airflow rate) 13 Apr 02
--added # 3 (surge limit line) 13 Apr 02
--changed # 5 (compressor efficiency) 08 Jan 03
11-05-2003, 08:19 PM
#38
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9
a skyline gtr r33 made 1000+ hp with just the hks t51r-spl turbo.
here is the proof.
http://www.toprpm.com/eng/future/future1.shtm
and here is the vid http://www.toprpm.com/videodw/stream/future_gtr33.ram
btw they made 1000+ rwhp with no nitrous. so imagine what it will do for a rotary.
here is the proof.
http://www.toprpm.com/eng/future/future1.shtm
and here is the vid http://www.toprpm.com/videodw/stream/future_gtr33.ram
btw they made 1000+ rwhp with no nitrous. so imagine what it will do for a rotary.
11-09-2003, 04:32 PM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hell (Colorado School of Mines)
Posts: 521
For those of you that know anything about ideal gas law, if you know a better way of explaining how to convert CFM to LB/MIN, your input would be appreciated. But please explain it in "laymans" terms, so that everyone can get a grasp on it.
Ideal Gas Law (PV=nRT) states that for any ideal gas Pressure X Volume = Number of Moles(Mass) X Temperature X Ideal Gas Constant. Air is not exactly an Ideal gas but it is close enough that this law still applies to an extent. The Ideal gas constant is .086((L Atm)/(mol °K)) - spoken the unit is: Liter Atmosphere per Mole Kelvin. Converted into units relevant to us it is .6685((ft³ psi)/(lb °K))
To convert from ft³ to lbs rearrange Ideal Gas Law: n(lbs)=PV/RT
- P is the pressure in psi. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi
- V is the volume in CFM
- R is the Ideal Gas Constant = .6685
- T is the temp in Kelvins. To convert from °C to Kelvins simply add 273.15. (for those of you who don't remember the conversion from °F to °C is - (°F-32)*5/9)
Ex. Temp is 90°F, Tested CFM is 450
- ((90-32)*5/9)+273.15 = 305.37 K
- n = (14.7*450)/(.6685*305.37) = 32.404 lb/min
Thats all first year college chemistry - I'm studying that as we speak... er... type
