How Good Is This Ebay Intercooler?
04-05-2004, 09:05 AM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Frederick MD
Posts: 6,331
I'd have to agree with DuMaurier 7. If you ask for an opinion, chances are you'll get one.
Chances are, the intercooler in question will be more than sufficient for it's proposed use. However, if I were building a car with the intentions of optimal performance I would look to more high-end products. Reason being, the lower end products are generally lower in price as some quality is sacrificed to save money. Not in all cases of course, but in many.
All intercoolers function similar in the right settings. Some will perform better in these said conditions as Ted stated.
Chances are, the intercooler in question will be more than sufficient for it's proposed use. However, if I were building a car with the intentions of optimal performance I would look to more high-end products. Reason being, the lower end products are generally lower in price as some quality is sacrificed to save money. Not in all cases of course, but in many.
All intercoolers function similar in the right settings. Some will perform better in these said conditions as Ted stated.
04-08-2004, 02:22 AM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Culpeper, VA
Posts: 572
Here are some numbers I got from the stock IC vs the Ebay FMIC
These are both datalogs from my Microtech installed on my car.
Both are pulls from 1st through 5th (1st - 4th are to 8000 and 5th to slow down)
Both of these runs were about 12-13 seconds
Both were at 12 psi and 93 octane
Both the pulls were around 73F ambient
The TMIC hit a max temp of 38C (100F) at the top of 4th.
The FMIC hit a max temp of 27C (80F) at the top of 4th.
With those numbers, you can calculate the efficiency for the TMIC to be 70ish and the FMIC 90ish.
All of these numbers are not exact. I need more sensors to be more accurate.
My turbo also has a small effect on these numbers because it varies from turbo to turbo. Also, wind speed,wind direction, air density, angle of the intercooler, piping used, bends, all have an effect too. But only to a hunderedth degree, unless its to the extreme. When I get my new sensors in, I will be puting them everywhere. I am also going to check the boost drop and run the tests up to 18 psi.
For $400 to get 20% more cooling or $1100 to get 22%. Hmmmm.
But of course, there is always liquid N2
I also forgot to mention that it took a longer time for the FMIC to heat up. From the begining, it took untill mid 2nd to rise a few degress instead of the TMIC heating up instantly.
These are both datalogs from my Microtech installed on my car.
Both are pulls from 1st through 5th (1st - 4th are to 8000 and 5th to slow down)
Both of these runs were about 12-13 seconds
Both were at 12 psi and 93 octane
Both the pulls were around 73F ambient
The TMIC hit a max temp of 38C (100F) at the top of 4th.
The FMIC hit a max temp of 27C (80F) at the top of 4th.
With those numbers, you can calculate the efficiency for the TMIC to be 70ish and the FMIC 90ish.
All of these numbers are not exact. I need more sensors to be more accurate.
My turbo also has a small effect on these numbers because it varies from turbo to turbo. Also, wind speed,wind direction, air density, angle of the intercooler, piping used, bends, all have an effect too. But only to a hunderedth degree, unless its to the extreme. When I get my new sensors in, I will be puting them everywhere. I am also going to check the boost drop and run the tests up to 18 psi.
For $400 to get 20% more cooling or $1100 to get 22%. Hmmmm.
But of course, there is always liquid N2
I also forgot to mention that it took a longer time for the FMIC to heat up. From the begining, it took untill mid 2nd to rise a few degress instead of the TMIC heating up instantly.
04-08-2004, 12:14 PM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Culpeper, VA
Posts: 572
Originally Posted by FikseRxSeven' date='Apr 8 2004, 05:33 AM
TMIC= which setup?
The heat deflector removal helped cool it better when you are moving, once you stop, the IC heats right up.
04-08-2004, 02:17 PM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pimp'n ain't E-Z! But driving ur FD makes it easier!
Posts: 2,705
My views on this intercooler were posted in a previous thread in 2nd gen forum...BUT...I will add them here, just in case...
The good:
-Intercooler is less expensive
-Comes polished(usually an extra cost on a few aftermarket companies)
-Is better then stock/and is still a good "next step" upgrade for street cars
The bad:
-My personal opinion is that build quality was low(sloppy welds,etc)
-Internal fin design is minimal compared to GReddy/APEXi/XS, etc
-I feel the endtanks are too small for higher boost levels regarding pressure drop
I'm not trying to start another battle in here by any means. I have seen Ted on forums since I can remember owning a 7...we've had our run-in's, etc..but I still don't bash his knowledge. Sometimes being in the business of selling parts, making the parts, or installing/tuning the parts..you have to be ready for anything. You have to be ready for differences in opinions, budget and tastes. Somebody comes up wanting an intercooled turbo kit custom built to their car, but they only have X amount of money...you start to look at alternatives to doing the most expensive & highest performing route..and you build for what the customer wanted. Later on, customer gets some extra cash...wants to keep upgrading, bam..through in a high-end IC from Spearco, etc..
Another note, and I know I'm jumping around and what not, but for those who are "bashing" the name brands..saying you can buy a name or an intercooler..this is completely untrue. Most of the higher end parts companies started life in racing..its a fact. You look at spearco, TRUST, APEXi, etc..or even some of your domestic guys like Edelbrock and holley..these guys CAME from racing. They have years on top of years of experience with what it takes to beat the other guy. You can't say that just because I bought a GReddy FMIC or a Spearco core, that I just spent the extra money on the name..I didn't. I spent the money on the added research that through their years of racing and testing their products on their cars they were able to compile. You think those guys like losing a race? Every bit of what they know goes into their products...and they are a superior product. It's not hype, it's not "them trying to sell something" ...it's their facts, their victories on the track and their LIFE. No company wants to be found out for selling an overpriced product that doesn't perform as it should...and the best way those big name guys have found to do that, is to make superior products.
And now I'm done w/ my little rant...but finally..every car is an expression of the person who built it..do whatever you want with your own cars...and just everybody get along!
The good:
-Intercooler is less expensive
-Comes polished(usually an extra cost on a few aftermarket companies)
-Is better then stock/and is still a good "next step" upgrade for street cars
The bad:
-My personal opinion is that build quality was low(sloppy welds,etc)
-Internal fin design is minimal compared to GReddy/APEXi/XS, etc
-I feel the endtanks are too small for higher boost levels regarding pressure drop
I'm not trying to start another battle in here by any means. I have seen Ted on forums since I can remember owning a 7...we've had our run-in's, etc..but I still don't bash his knowledge. Sometimes being in the business of selling parts, making the parts, or installing/tuning the parts..you have to be ready for anything. You have to be ready for differences in opinions, budget and tastes. Somebody comes up wanting an intercooled turbo kit custom built to their car, but they only have X amount of money...you start to look at alternatives to doing the most expensive & highest performing route..and you build for what the customer wanted. Later on, customer gets some extra cash...wants to keep upgrading, bam..through in a high-end IC from Spearco, etc..
Another note, and I know I'm jumping around and what not, but for those who are "bashing" the name brands..saying you can buy a name or an intercooler..this is completely untrue. Most of the higher end parts companies started life in racing..its a fact. You look at spearco, TRUST, APEXi, etc..or even some of your domestic guys like Edelbrock and holley..these guys CAME from racing. They have years on top of years of experience with what it takes to beat the other guy. You can't say that just because I bought a GReddy FMIC or a Spearco core, that I just spent the extra money on the name..I didn't. I spent the money on the added research that through their years of racing and testing their products on their cars they were able to compile. You think those guys like losing a race? Every bit of what they know goes into their products...and they are a superior product. It's not hype, it's not "them trying to sell something" ...it's their facts, their victories on the track and their LIFE. No company wants to be found out for selling an overpriced product that doesn't perform as it should...and the best way those big name guys have found to do that, is to make superior products.
And now I'm done w/ my little rant...but finally..every car is an expression of the person who built it..do whatever you want with your own cars...and just everybody get along!
04-08-2004, 11:51 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Culpeper, VA
Posts: 572
Bill, quit crying about the endtanks. You have NO idea what it is or what yours is. If you think about it, mine has less because the air charge has less room to expand. The reason that the endtank size matters is so that the air charge can expand and decrease pressure so it can cool better, but not by much.
heres a pic
You can take the difference in 2 ways:
1. The higher flow of the larger endtank will not cool as well since it will spend less time in the core
or
2. The higher flow in the long run wont heat the IC up as quickly, so you get a longer time of cooler air.
It makes sense then that the larger endtanks would have a higher density of internal fins so it will cool better.
You can also account that it is easier for lower pressure air to be cooled because it is technically cooler to begin with.
And for everyone out there who thinks pressure drop occurs when the IC is installed, I just have to say one thing......there is none. These tests are done with one endtank open and the other with an air source set to a certain CFM. Then pressure is measured before and after the core. There is your boost drop and flow measurments. When it on the car, if you are boosting 10 psi, there is 10psi in the whole system. It is impossible for there not to be.
heres a pic
You can take the difference in 2 ways:
1. The higher flow of the larger endtank will not cool as well since it will spend less time in the core
or
2. The higher flow in the long run wont heat the IC up as quickly, so you get a longer time of cooler air.
It makes sense then that the larger endtanks would have a higher density of internal fins so it will cool better.
You can also account that it is easier for lower pressure air to be cooled because it is technically cooler to begin with.
And for everyone out there who thinks pressure drop occurs when the IC is installed, I just have to say one thing......there is none. These tests are done with one endtank open and the other with an air source set to a certain CFM. Then pressure is measured before and after the core. There is your boost drop and flow measurments. When it on the car, if you are boosting 10 psi, there is 10psi in the whole system. It is impossible for there not to be.
04-09-2004, 12:39 AM
#49
Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 73
IC pressure drop does occur, and has been measured on many cars. When you are flowing a lot of air (high boost & high RPM) through the piping and IC, the pressure will be higher at the compressor outlet than it is right before the throttle body. Pretty much all air-to-air IC systems have some measurable pressure drop -- 1 psi is pretty good; 3 psi is not so good. If your IC (and piping) is restrictive, you will have more pressure drop. That means the turbos have to create more pressure at the compressor outlet to get the same manifold pressure. As a result the air temp at the compressor outlet will be higher (since it is more compressed), and there will be more backpressure on the exhaust side since the compressor has to work harder. Backpressure limits flow through the engine system at a given manifold boost level, and thus limits power.
Pressure drop is really a measurement of the flow capabilities of the piping and IC. A system with less flow capability will have more pressure drop at a given CFM. A system with more flow capability will have less pressure drop at the same CFM.
Pressure drop does NOT mean that you get less boost pressure in the manifold after installing an IC, though it may manifest that way depending on how your boost is controlled. But by definition, the pressure drop is the difference in pressure before and after the IC -- it is NOT a measure of how much your boost changes after installing a different IC. You can have an IC with 3 psi of pressure drop (at max boost/RPM on your car) and replace it with a new IC with 1 psi of pressure drop (at the same boost+RPM conditions) and end up with the same manifold boost pressure. Assuming the cooling performance is similar between the two, you will make more power with the IC that has less pressure drop. That is why people care about pressure drop.
-Max
Pressure drop is really a measurement of the flow capabilities of the piping and IC. A system with less flow capability will have more pressure drop at a given CFM. A system with more flow capability will have less pressure drop at the same CFM.
Pressure drop does NOT mean that you get less boost pressure in the manifold after installing an IC, though it may manifest that way depending on how your boost is controlled. But by definition, the pressure drop is the difference in pressure before and after the IC -- it is NOT a measure of how much your boost changes after installing a different IC. You can have an IC with 3 psi of pressure drop (at max boost/RPM on your car) and replace it with a new IC with 1 psi of pressure drop (at the same boost+RPM conditions) and end up with the same manifold boost pressure. Assuming the cooling performance is similar between the two, you will make more power with the IC that has less pressure drop. That is why people care about pressure drop.
-Max
04-09-2004, 12:54 AM
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Culpeper, VA
Posts: 572
To prove that physics will win agian, I will put a few more pressure sensor throughout my piping in the morning. All of them will read the same at any given time. It is impossible to have a higher or lower pressure than any other place in a sealed system. For there to be 10 psi in the compressor, there has to be 10 psi in the manifold and TB and piping and intercooler. It will equal itself out. Thats what pressure likes to do.