apparently 750cc are not enough for my car! they are getting maxxed out on cruising to 7000rpm! judge ito is putting in 1300cc primaries to go along with 1600cc secondaries!!! that's alot of fuel !!!! i should be able to easily run 25psi when its tuned https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png i'm getting the car back today too :bigok:

Hmm, i cant see how 750's / 1600's wasnt enough.



Chris Anderson ran 850 / 1600's and I believe also Steve Kann does as well



They were prob running high fuel pressure though, thats the only thing I can imagine......unless your running 9's lol



STEPHEN

this was on acceleration with no boost basically running on just the 750's once the 1600's kick in on boost its fine

Hmm, so this was on a light load setting where just the 720 are running huh.



In the Haltec cant you change the staging so that the secondaries come on earlier???



STEPHEN

i think you can. i'm not a haltech guru.... i wanted bigger primaries anyway https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

1600's all the way around. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

i have 1600's but no rail for it yet. i think that's gonna be a winter project https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

you can move the "staging" bar over so the secondaries come on sooner.



mike

i'll let ito know. i think if he moves the staging bar the secondaries will dump too much fuel though....

yah, you would have to retune that part of the map. well who cares you get the car back, again yaaaaaaaay



mike

That's what I was thinking, but I figured they would have done it already.

I thought a lot of people were using 1300 secondaries. Or is that just for stock turbos. Well either way you got your car back, and once you get your primaries and secondaries and tuned you'll be running, well you'll be haulins some major ars.

- Steiner

I'll probably be going 1300cc X 4 all around...should be "fun" https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

I went with the 850cc primary, I didn't want to spend 3 hours fine tunning does 1300cc's I have. Hey Vosko just let me drive it one more dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Man gob bless Felix Wankel...

I though I was right about changing the staging with the Haltech. I believe since your staging is probably based on 550/850 or soemthing like that it just needs to be tweaked for the new size difference in injectors.



The only thing with going from 750 to 850 is that if your already maxing out 750's adding another 100cc's prob isnt enough and if you go larger its supposed to be much harder to fine tune. From what I hear (I've never tried larger than 850pri) the larger injectors just dump to much fuel with each pulse and just cant be fine tuned like 850 and smaller. Well let me rephrase....it CAN be fine tuned its just much harder.



You have enough injector right now to make 550 at the wheels with stock fuel pressure. It sounds like more of a tuning issue than a fuel issue to me.



But you know how all this goes, I havent seen the car so who am I to say, I'm just throwing out my .02



STEPHEN

have fun :bigok:

Hmm.. are you still running the stock port a side, a bridge... you could always gut the inside of the upper intake manifold basicly making it a surge tank, then batch fire the injectors all at once at idol so there never is a transition.. This works good with a bridge port are large side port with some overlap.. Give me some more info on your set up and I'll try to help you out.. You should have enough fuel for a good 500+ hp right now..

it a large street port

I don't think big primaries are the way to go. I don't know about the Haltech, but ECUs I've dealt with make the transition from primaries only to primarys and secondarys when the primaries reach a certain duty cycle (say 80%). At this point the primary duty cycle is cut back and the secondaries come in. So I don't understand why your primaries were maxing out.

What I do know is that the ECU MUST know the ratio of the sizing between the primarys and secondaries or a lean or rich spot will be encoutered during the transition. If you've left the ratio set for 550/850 (ratio 0.647) and changed to 720/1600 (ratio 0.45) then you are bound to run into trouble unless you change the ratio used by the ECU.

Also big primaries mean that you have very little resolution for tuning around idle and cruising. So in my opinion keep small primarys (even 550s)

and go for however big (or many) injectors you need on the secondaries. But make sure you let the ECU know about the ratio change. I'd be surprised if the Haltech doesn't allow for this adjustment.

Injector change over occures at 40%, what is hard to control is the transition between them. Where the problem comes in is that 40% on a 550cc inj. is way diffrent that 40% on a 720cc inj. This makes the injector change over happen in a completly diffrent part of the map where the engine is under more power. The problem with this is that when the injector change over occures fuel starts comming in from the secondary port and the fuel on the primary side is cut in half. This interuption usually causes a slight lean condition for a split second and this can kill a engine under power. What you have to do tune in a small overlap between when the secondary injector starts to fire and when the primary cuts it's fuel in half and play around with the the speed that the injectors transition. The bigger the injector and injector diffrence the more time you need.. You can also play with when the injector change over occures Ie. make it happen at 20%, but this requires a lot of adjustments to the fuel map.. The Power FC with the Datalogit allows you to adjust these setting.. I'm not sure about the Haltec..

i think the haltech is simpler. on the map there is a bar where it turns the secondaries on. you can move the bar around, so you can have it switch on at 0psi, 1 psi whatever you want. the injector duty cycle is relative to the height of the bar, so before the transition the bars get tall, and then after they get short because its a "bigger" injector. so the ratio thing is still there but its represented by the height of the bar. i think



mike

jon and ito. i don't think there's any problem at all with the 550 primaries, though i could be wrong. i think its the staging. i have run 550/1600's since i put the haltech in and haven't had any problems at all. i stage the secondaries at the 12th bar. this is just over 0 boost/psi. jon, you need to hook your laptop up and download the haltech maps and let's take a look at them. you are only running the primaries only under vacuum and there's no way this should be maxing out under cruising. could you give us the settings for the main "setup" pages from your haltech and we can straighten this out in 2 minutes. honestly. and... i think this will be good for everybody on the single turbo forum. there are a lot of guys who are just getting into this and don't know how to set these up. maybe we could walk through it here? -gordon

when i have my car and my laptop back i will do that https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

Well if you want to discuss some different setting and what they do or how they interact that would be great. I dont have a Haltech but most decent stand alones have similar settings and just understanding what some of them do would be great. I'd like to talk some about that stuff to gain a little knowledge. Who know some if it might help me out with the PFC/datalogit i have



STEPHEN

yah, we need to start some threads, gd played with my timing and now i realize how little i know :bigok:



mike

Hey dude,



What duty cycle were your injectors running at 7000 rpm? I think going over 850cc on primaries will yield your a rough idle and shitty gas mileage.



Did you try upping the fuel pressure maybe 5% to compensate for starvation? Why not go with 850 primaries?



Mario

right now 850's are in there. it's running pretty good. going to tune it on the street with the wideband hopefully tonight!

have fun https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



mike

cool. You should be fine with that setup in regards to fuel.



Mario

i hope to get the wideband installed but it may be installed tomorrow who knows. for something so expensive it sure came in a small box HAHAHA

Vosko are you trying to compensate for something with bigger injectors? Injector envy is a curable disease. if you can admit that you need help. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/spam.gif

i admit i want to run lots of boost LOL

Just curious about the injector sizes mentioned here. My buddies 13Bt Rx3 flatlined at 320 rwhp with 4 std 550cc injectors at 100% duty cycle & bad lean-out, but produced 290 at 85% with a 12.0 A/F

We threw my 12A turbo injectors (880 cc) in the secondaries & got 320 again with 11.5 A/F, my injector software says up to 400 hp would be supported by this setup. There is a Rx3 here with 4 12A turbo injectors running in the 10's on C16 fuel......I guess you guys are chasing really big power numbers?

yes, VOSKO must have a petrol station in his garden. LOL https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/beer2.gif

its illegal in the us to go over 70% duty cycle



mike

my goal for the car is 500rwhp.........we'll see if it actually happens https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

I once went to 70-75% duty cycle with my 4 1600's at around 19-20 PSI, but I was running kind of rich. 4 1600's should be good for 1000 HP. So 60-70% should give vosko what he needs.

I once went to 70-75% duty cycle with my 4 1600's at around 19-20 PSI, but I was running kind of rich. 4 1600's should be good for 1000 HP. So 60-70% should give vosko what he needs.[/quote]

i hope so!

OIC. We use 80% here as a rule, the thinking being you can't ensure accurate opening & closing with less than 20% of the cycle to do it with. The A/F ratio is GOD! A good wideband O2 sensor is invaluable. I tune WOT to 11.8-12.0 at 80% duty cycle and 2 litres of fuel flow returned to the tank. This seems to produce good hp at a nice safe non-detonating A/R. We leaned & advanced a 'mule' motor & got another 60-70 hp with no other changes but thats a time bomb 2 pass motor for the 'win at all costs' mentality!

i'm hopefully dyno tuning my car next week!