theres a new recall pending in a couple of weeks on almost all of the rx8's. its a biggie too, details arent out yet, but basically we're running a series of tests on the engines.



you're gonna want to make sure the engine is stock for this one....

dude the recall makes us do a compression test, vacum test, change spark plugs again and if the vehical does not have the updated starter we need to put that one in aswell. this recall isnt new , its been floating around for a while but now instead of it being a tsb its a full on recall.

Is this the one where they put the 4.0 V6 in it?

no this one is new in a couple weeks, if it fails the testing it gets an engine and or a main cat

damn that is serious if they are actually talking awhole new engine, what is it that needs fixing?

apparently in high heat, low humidity, high rpm, low throttle situations, the metering system doesnt give enough oil, and the engine looses compression. its something we havent seen, our customers tend to go to the racetrack, and its fine there.



its interesting though, we service about 200 rx8's, if the recall takes 4 hours, we've got one guy to do it, thats 2 cars a day for 100 days! and then we've got a different guy to change engines, we're expecting a 10% failure rate....



so this is a big deal

i think this might be the final nail in the rotary engine coffin for mazda.........

it might not be, its hard to say. but i'm not sure its sold like they were hoping too

the dealer must be happy, lots of money for this one



they should just recall all the RX8s and give people thier money back https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif

Ok so it takes me 6 trips to get a evap code fixed how many trips does an engine swap take? Do you have to come pick it up and roll home flintstone style while you wait for parts?

its a shame the cars didnt work out better

Hmm, so mike you going to be blowing out renesis cores?

yeah maybe, we're figuring to do between 2-5 engines, mazda says 1% failure rate + 200ish cars + our greedy fudge factor....



ive got like 6-7 PAIRS of taillights, they do collect water, but otherwise are good



and ive got like 50-60 good starters....

renesis RX3 anyone?





https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

that would be sweet!

that would be stupid

why? as usual nobody knows it, but they've been endurance racing the rx8's since they came out, i guess they do just fine in a 24 hour race, its just not a good dialy driver

Any idea which VINs get the recall?

Hmm...now I'm just trying to figure out if I should hope I have the problem and get a new engine, or if I should hope I don't have the problem, so I don't have the local dealerships mucking about on my car.



Decisions decisions.

all of em up to spring 06 production

what a clusterfuck for mazda

sucks :(



btw, mike. let me know if you can get your hands on any "broken" renesis motors. i doubt it though

sorta like mazda took those crate s4 motors and just trashed em for the insurance money. money money money, they dont care about our engine swapping needs!!!!!

Looks like new engine for me then, bought summer of '03.

tad bit early to say, but if its running ok, then you probably wont get an engine

but they are extending the powertrain warranty to 6 years 60,000miles

isnt it 5 year 60 to begin with?

I talked about how the renesis had durability issues, how my Rx8 went from 108psi on every rotor compression chamber to 95psi in a short time after serious racing abuse. Over on the Rx8 club, they said I was crazy. I took my engine apart and found worn flat corner seal springs and a gash on the side of the corner seal, from the sideseal pushing up against it(which is normal in a high milage engine) but my engine only had 14,000 miles when I took it apart. Mazda needs to do a little more research. no excuses for them. with all the money and engineers they have, this is unexceptable!

I have to agree with Ito on this issue also. I have also found the same exact problems when using the RX-8 rotors in race applications. The side seals are destroying the corner seals due to excessive side seal clearance. The wear mark on the corner seal is not acceptable for such a short operation time.

From what I've seen the rx-8 rotors are assembled with excessive side to corner seal clearances to what have been the accepted norm form the beginning of the rotary motor. The reason for this might be that excessive clearance is needed due to the design of the motor placing the exhaust port on the side housing thus leading to excessive heat being transfered to the side seals etc. Without the extra clearance side seal growth due to thermal expansion would cause failure. Another reason might be with excessive clearances there is less chance of a side seal becomming stuck form excessive carbon deposits etc. also due to the side exhaust ports. The 'tapered wedge' design of the side seal also helps with that theory also.

The actual problem lies in what is the accepted operation temperature for the side seals to seal properly. If your driving habbits are such that cruising and idling around is the norm would that be sufficent for the seals to seal properly and to resist carbon build up. No one except Mazda could probably answer that question.

Now what I've seen from using the rx-8 rotors in a race application.

Right from the beginning Mazda claimed that the rx-8 rotors were casted using a new process. According to them this resulted in a rotor that was cheaper to manufacture, lighter in design and also due to the more uniform molecule grain in the molding process did not require balancing.

I've not been able to obtain a set that are within the balancing tolerances that the earlier rotors had. Now the rotors are obviously within the balance specs that Mazda considers the norm but in actuality the older rotors were never at the the limit of those tolerances but more important at least the earlier motors had front and rear rotors that were almost identical in weight. Also you cannot lighten rx-8 rotors to same level as an earlier rotor. There's not enough material to do so.

Next problem when using the rx-8 rotors in an earlier application always resulted in lower compression sealing. Compression figures were lower by 20 to 25 psi and got worse after a couple hours of operation. Off course that was due to excessive side seal clearance plus the fact in the beginning the side seals were only available in pre-cut lengths that were too short anyway to obtain proper sealing and compression. After request from racers all around the world Mazda decided to produced the seals in un-cut form. Now I thought that was the answer to the side seal problem but it was not quite that easy.

When Mazda designed the rx-8 rotor they also moved the side seal position more outward placing them closer to the edge of the rotor. That was due to the new port shape Mazda was using in the rx-8 motor. Basically the port timing was opened earlier so the side side seals were moved to avoid them falling into the port. That along with the 'taper wedge' design led to a side seal that could not mate with the corner seal like the earlier ones did. Basically instead of the tip of the side seal butting up against the corner seal, the side seal now would try and wrap around the corner seal placing the sealing edges more on the bottom forming a wedge shape also. You have to visualise that in person to understand it. Without the proper equipment or technique in cutting the side seal to desired length, the shape was not easily obtained if compression was to be perfect as can be. To make a long story short although the longer side seals resulted in greater compression it still could not compare with what was obtained with the earlier side seal design.

Compression with the earlier rotors were in the lower 120's with one piece or upper 120's psi with two piece apex seals. With the rx-8 rotors from the get go compression was around 110psi and after a couple of racing hours would drop below 100 psi and never seem to stabalise and just kept getting lower in the order of a couple hours at racing use would be as low as 80 psi. With the longer side seals compression was up from before in the 110 to 115psi range but the greatest difference was that compression was no longer going away as quickly or at least within a couple of hours of race use. I have not opened the motor with the longer side seals as of yet to determine how they are coping. Any how the major drawback since converting to rx-8 rotors has been the lost of power which in my opinion is due to lower compression from leaking side seals. There are some that also believe that the smaller compression pocket on the rx-8 rotors are also partially to blame for the lost in power but that's another topic that I'm not going to get into right now anyway.

Sorry for the long post but just wanted to state my experiences/opinions using the rx-rotors in a race application.application

Good info. I always wondered what the rotary would be like if Toyota made them. With their huge resources and awesome reputation for reliabilty, durability and efficency maybe the rotary wouldn't have such a bad rep. But maybe the rotary is inherently flawed and nothng can make it as idiot-proof as a proven piston motor. I love rotaries and belive they are durable and reliable, but only under perfect conditions. They are very intolerant to many things that wouldn't faze an everday piston engine.

Interesting by all means keep posting...

I'm one of the ones having issues. My 8 has been suffering low idle with the occasional stall also, I have had powerloss in the upper rpm range but only in the late afternoon. My 8 runs smooth in the morning but the drive home sucks. Had it in the shop a couple of weeks ago for the same problem...I was told it was my coils, they were changed out, the idle got a little better but now it's back to doing the same thing again. I hope it gets fixed this next time I bring it in.

well so far so good, all of em have passed. we've done about 15 cars... so this is good news

That's good to hear. I am REALLY hoping that this doesn't kill the rotaries. I don't own a RX-8, but I am a rotary fan and don't want to see them die.

Well I'm the parts guy at our place and we have done a couple motors early on (Before the recall) and a few cats, mine was one of them. My 8 was a Demo off the lot before we bought it ,so lots of short drives. Recently, my car came through the vac test fine and had all the earlier changes already. So seems ok. Wifey is a lead foot so it gets excercised regularly.



My non scientific observation has been this...

People that have bought the cars as a semi exotic and caterered to it's unique needs.. ie: not shutting down cold often, revving the motor to where it likes to live, and spirited driving, haven't seemed to have to much trouble, even those of us with occaisional track forays or radar detector induced speeds.



People that bought it as something cooler than an Accord or a Camry, but still lug the motor, have no idea what the other 5000 rpms are for,, shut it down cold on short trips all the time, and generally are clueless to what sort of beast it is, do seem to have more problems. Now part of this is Mazda's fault as we wanted to sell it against all these other cars, but maybe we don't emphasise that it is Zoom zoom, and requires respect as such. I must say this is a personal opinion, as I do get a little frustrated when I meet someone that probably should have bought a Mazda6 sedan, or even a Speed6.



There is the other extreme semi knowledgeable but not wise enough not to thrash it, or modify at every new magazine idea, before it's proven. Not alot of sympathy for them. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub..._DIR#>/dry.png



Race applications, I am not directly working with anyone locally, but have discussed the Seals and port design with a couple knowledgable folks and wonder what it would take to be good in sprint road races. It has shown well in endurance racing, but heat problems have reared it's head in ALMS P2 I believe in some extremes..(3 rotor motor) Haven't kept up on it I am sure I will get quickly corrected! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.png



Again I am no expert, I know enough to be dangerous, and often forget the Mark Twain advice "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt." https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683664.gif



That being said, I still love the car, it's great for Road trips and fun to use as the Pace car for local races occassionally.



Neil Parts Manager

yeah the ones that go to the track are the ones that dont have problems

awesome info ito and crispeed.

I've heard of some problems from the RX-8 rotors, but this is even more stuff that I haven't heard of yet.

-Ben Martin

Crispeed, Great inside scoop on the 8 rotors. I personally haven't seen the inside of one but I've also hear some stuff about renesis from other rotorhead guru's that wasn't so positive either.

I think you might be stereotyping a little. I personally don't think it really matters who builds. Even Toyota builds shitty engines. Late 90s to Early 2000 model had oil Sludge problems and engines were failing prematurely.



I hate to say it but all these manufactures care about spending less on building and making most when they sell it... to make the stock holders happy https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

sucks for Mazda https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub..._DIR#>/sad.png

It really is too bad that the 8 has gotten such a bad rep, especially with other rotary owners. Engine problems, as mentioned, are almost all cases of someone who does not drive the car like it needs to be driven. It is also the first production car for the Renesis, some of us are willing to put up with a few development issues to have the car.



The car is very competent, and does not deserve the bad press it gets. It is a niche market car, and should have been viewed that way by Mazda from the onset, but for some reason people think it is a failure because it does not sell in numbers like an Accord or a Camry. I am glad I don't see one on every corner, I kinda like driving a car that you dont' see all over tha place.



My two cents, I just hate seeing how much people talk bad about the 8, it is a shame.

In light of the potential recall and such, has anyone been holding off on installing aftermarket parts in an effort to avoid conflicts on the warranty? While we know they don't directly cause issues, I don't want the dealer to assume I abuse or race my 8 because I've added coilovers or performance exhaust.



I'm familar with the Magnuson-Moss Act and how it protects the consumer who installs aftermarket parts. My concern is that Mazda doesn't have a firm grasp on the root cause of the failure and that the fix is a financial nightmare for them. I suspect they will do everything they can to avoid costly warranty repairs.



Any thoughts on this? I hope I'm just paranoid. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/wacko.gif