Why Is Porting Still Done By Hand?
05-24-2005, 06:38 PM
#41
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[quote name='Maxt' date='May 23 2005, 01:04 PM']Even the top porters make slips... Precisely why the alot of the top porters are using CNC...One can never be to accurate, remember the porting on our engines is also our "cam" timing, having everything phased properly is one of the keys to power...
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port timing is the easiest thing to repeat with porting an engine by hand. cnc machine can not decide what port timing to use you have to program it in. knowing port shape as well as port timing is what a good port is all about. you should already know this.
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port timing is the easiest thing to repeat with porting an engine by hand. cnc machine can not decide what port timing to use you have to program it in. knowing port shape as well as port timing is what a good port is all about. you should already know this.
05-24-2005, 06:44 PM
#42
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[quote name='Maxt' date='May 23 2005, 02:04 PM']Even the top porters make slips... Precisely why the alot of the top porters are using CNC...One can never be to accurate, remember the porting on our engines is also our "cam" timing, having everything phased properly is one of the keys to power...
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The top porters dont make slips. They didnt become the top porters by making slips.
Why dont you name some of these "top shops" that are backing CNC porting. I have yet to see a single respectable engine builder/porter back CNC work.
[quote name='Maxt' date='May 24 2005, 07:25 PM']Sometime I wonder why I even bother...
Who spends their time doing ports like that, hmm... People that are serious, thats who...
They guy I know, is working from from irons I gave him with with radius corrections plotted in, its not going to be mainstay work for his CNC machines, but shop filler in between large jobs, its better to have a machine making 250.oo then nothing...In between molds sometimes the cnc can sit for a week with nothing going in or out of it..
The problem with this kinda of stuff as someone mentioned you cant go to a machine shop and expect them to know you want or expect, and if its an hourly based shop,you are going to pay primetime money for every minute thats spent on it, be it machining , plotting or talking, but its not like that for places that have CNC machines that are in a niche market, but have down time to fill once the bread and butter is done, and thats the difference, anything they do over above their standard fare is gravy...
I am going there saturday for an update..Maxt
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Best of luck to you, but Im going to continue doing my ports by hand until I see a compelling argument for CNC porting, and see some real shops with real reputations on the line backing CNC porting.
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The top porters dont make slips. They didnt become the top porters by making slips.
Why dont you name some of these "top shops" that are backing CNC porting. I have yet to see a single respectable engine builder/porter back CNC work.
[quote name='Maxt' date='May 24 2005, 07:25 PM']Sometime I wonder why I even bother...
Who spends their time doing ports like that, hmm... People that are serious, thats who...
They guy I know, is working from from irons I gave him with with radius corrections plotted in, its not going to be mainstay work for his CNC machines, but shop filler in between large jobs, its better to have a machine making 250.oo then nothing...In between molds sometimes the cnc can sit for a week with nothing going in or out of it..
The problem with this kinda of stuff as someone mentioned you cant go to a machine shop and expect them to know you want or expect, and if its an hourly based shop,you are going to pay primetime money for every minute thats spent on it, be it machining , plotting or talking, but its not like that for places that have CNC machines that are in a niche market, but have down time to fill once the bread and butter is done, and thats the difference, anything they do over above their standard fare is gravy...
I am going there saturday for an update..Maxt
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Best of luck to you, but Im going to continue doing my ports by hand until I see a compelling argument for CNC porting, and see some real shops with real reputations on the line backing CNC porting.
05-24-2005, 07:21 PM
#43
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[quote name='GMON' date='May 24 2005, 09:30 AM']Im with ted. I have a bunch of engines under my belt now and I would never waste my ******* time going to a machine shop and try to explain to them what I want.
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i had a hard enough time just trying to get someone to polish my rotors for me, and GMON can attest to it. the people i spoke to are probably very good at what they do, but they have no clue when it comes to a Mazda rotary. i got so disgusted that i did it myself (GMON gave me some tips
)
i can only imagine what a mind-numbing experience it would be trying to get someone to port housings with all the fine differences between 12A and 13B (-E, -T, -REW and -RE) castings. NEVER!
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i had a hard enough time just trying to get someone to polish my rotors for me, and GMON can attest to it. the people i spoke to are probably very good at what they do, but they have no clue when it comes to a Mazda rotary. i got so disgusted that i did it myself (GMON gave me some tips
i can only imagine what a mind-numbing experience it would be trying to get someone to port housings with all the fine differences between 12A and 13B (-E, -T, -REW and -RE) castings. NEVER!
05-25-2005, 09:49 AM
#45
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Posts: 426
this thread just needs to go away.
if you have the time and money to go cnc, do it and post up some pics--everyone would like to take a look.
i'll stick with hand porting, but if you can make t work, more power to you. why is everyone giving this guy hell just for having an idea?
******* forums....i swear
if you have the time and money to go cnc, do it and post up some pics--everyone would like to take a look.
i'll stick with hand porting, but if you can make t work, more power to you. why is everyone giving this guy hell just for having an idea?
******* forums....i swear
05-25-2005, 10:52 AM
#46
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Can someone post up pictures of these CNC made ports? I would really like to see an example of them. Hell if it can be done with a CNC why not if the cost isn't outrageous. I get tired of porting even though I love doing it. It's a love hate thing. I always complain about it but once I'm into it I don't want to be bothered and then hours pass and I don't even notice it.
05-25-2005, 02:50 PM
#47
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[quote name='guitarjunkie28' date='May 25 2005, 10:49 AM']this thread just needs to go away.
if you have the time and money to go cnc, do it and post up some pics--everyone would like to take a look.
i'll stick with hand porting, but if you can make t work, more power to you. why is everyone giving this guy hell just for having an idea?
******* forums....i swear
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I think this is a good thread. Theres good arguments here, although I cant say the 2 sides have been defended evenly. Regardless, its still a good discussion to let people make what they want out of it.
I have yet to see "giving someone hell." I and a few others disagree with the practicality of CNC ports, and stated valid reasons supporting this. Questioning someones background is good for an intelligent discussion when people are posting opinions and hypothesis'.
I would like someone to provide something more that just a hypothesis that CNC ports are efficient and cost effictive.
CNC proponents, you talked the talk, lets see some walk.
if you have the time and money to go cnc, do it and post up some pics--everyone would like to take a look.
i'll stick with hand porting, but if you can make t work, more power to you. why is everyone giving this guy hell just for having an idea?
******* forums....i swear
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I think this is a good thread. Theres good arguments here, although I cant say the 2 sides have been defended evenly. Regardless, its still a good discussion to let people make what they want out of it.
I have yet to see "giving someone hell." I and a few others disagree with the practicality of CNC ports, and stated valid reasons supporting this. Questioning someones background is good for an intelligent discussion when people are posting opinions and hypothesis'.
I would like someone to provide something more that just a hypothesis that CNC ports are efficient and cost effictive.
CNC proponents, you talked the talk, lets see some walk.
05-25-2005, 11:37 PM
#48
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,467
[quote name='mazdaspeed7' date='May 25 2005, 12:50 PM']I think this is a good thread. Theres good arguments here, although I cant say the 2 sides have been defended evenly. Regardless, its still a good discussion to let people make what they want out of it.
I have yet to see "giving someone hell." I and a few others disagree with the practicality of CNC ports, and stated valid reasons supporting this. Questioning someones background is good for an intelligent discussion when people are posting opinions and hypothesis'.
I would like someone to provide something more that just a hypothesis that CNC ports are efficient and cost effictive.
CNC proponents, you talked the talk, lets see some walk.
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I agree, nothing more than a healthy discussion
It would seem that this isn't a new way of thinking in the engine building world, on top of what the opponents to CNC rotary porting have already discussed I have to believe that a certain level of practicality has to be maintined to consider CNC porting in the rotary.
With a much smaller market than piston engines, rotary engine builders have to be practical, with all the technological advances in machining, don't you think if CNC porting was a practical application it would already be nearing or at an industry standard in the rotary world?
My guess is companies with budgets to afford this type of work have already came to the conclusion that is prevailing here, while many people may want the work, it isn't practical, too much money and time spent up front for to little return...and I really can't say that is a bad thing for my money, the level of talent and craftmanship in hand porting has to high a value, it only hightens the elite and unique nature of the rotary engine and the people who build them.
I have yet to see "giving someone hell." I and a few others disagree with the practicality of CNC ports, and stated valid reasons supporting this. Questioning someones background is good for an intelligent discussion when people are posting opinions and hypothesis'.
I would like someone to provide something more that just a hypothesis that CNC ports are efficient and cost effictive.
CNC proponents, you talked the talk, lets see some walk.
[snapback]717654[/snapback]
[/quote]
I agree, nothing more than a healthy discussion
It would seem that this isn't a new way of thinking in the engine building world, on top of what the opponents to CNC rotary porting have already discussed I have to believe that a certain level of practicality has to be maintined to consider CNC porting in the rotary.
With a much smaller market than piston engines, rotary engine builders have to be practical, with all the technological advances in machining, don't you think if CNC porting was a practical application it would already be nearing or at an industry standard in the rotary world?
My guess is companies with budgets to afford this type of work have already came to the conclusion that is prevailing here, while many people may want the work, it isn't practical, too much money and time spent up front for to little return...and I really can't say that is a bad thing for my money, the level of talent and craftmanship in hand porting has to high a value, it only hightens the elite and unique nature of the rotary engine and the people who build them.
05-27-2005, 09:55 PM
#50
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[quote name='G_RIDE' date='May 27 2005, 07:53 PM']Hmmmm... As far as I know every port from the factory is done on a machine...but maybe i am wrong and they have little monkeys porting the engines
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castings?
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castings?