teknics

so ive been rambling on for a LONG time about why MSD wires suck and how they arc and bla bla bla. most people brushed it off as me not liking MSD (meanwhile i have their whole line of products EXCEPT their wires)



so anyway i've found a wonderful article that hopefully will teach people that wires making amazing claims are bullshit, it's a long read but a GREAT one if you have the time.



the other article is interesting too.



http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm - THE TRUTH ABOUT IGNITION WIRE CONDUCTORS



http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/overview.htm - A Brief Overview of the Performance Aftermarket Ignition Wire Industry in the USA



Maybe this will help some of you guys who have had inexplicable engine explosion problems.



Enjoy!



Kevin

rotarygod

While I actually do have Magnecor wires on my car and love them, it must be pointed out that these links are to their site so it's not too surprising to see them post something that makes you think twice about the competitors products. They do provide some very nice factual information though.

1Revvin7

I didn't read you links, but we've used MSD wires on 100s of cars without problems..

Lynn E. Hanover

The comments on shielded wires were amusing. Have you ever looked at an airplane ignition system

with its completely shielded system in a stainless braid and grounded, and screw together connections? They still build those new every day. And they work perfectly.



Keep the trigger wires away from each other (run them through separate soft aluminum tubing and ground the tubing) and away from the plug wires, and 90% of your ignition problems will be gone. Run the plug wires through plastic standoffs and not long runs against sheet metal or other plug wires. Don't tye wrap the plug wires to any grounded metal.



If you run a split don't tye wrap the wires from one housing to each other.



Looks like a hen house security report from the fox.





Lynn E. Hanover

Kim

ROFL



"If you are outside of the USA, please understand that claims you see in advertisements or other promotional material by ignition component marketers in the USA are not necessarily factual, as advertising standards and enforcement of truth in advertising in the USA are different to those in other countries. In addition, most magazines who promote such products in editorial are under little pressure to check the factual nature of what they publish. "



So they might be bullshitting you guys ???

Lynn E. Hanover

I would very much like to see a good scientific lab test 24" lengths of each MFRs wire for power in vice power out, and then with differing plug gaps and again with various amounts of grounded material clamped hard gainst the wire insulation. That test program should be repeated with every popular aftermarket super duty ignition system.



I used to test dielectric strength of materials and componenets at Western Electric. This is insulation effectivness. And many materials do well at the 25,000 volt level and conduct like crazy at the 50,000 volt level.



Once a failure occurs a carbon path is formed to ground or another conductor and the conductor is subverted and must be replaced. Also, clamping long runs of wire to a grounded platform adds capacitance to the output end of a system that may alter its performance.



The very best insulation is distance. So pick up some plastic standoffs (Not the chrome steel ones) at the hot rod shop and get those wires off of and away from all grounded materials, and there cannot be any burn throughs or shorts.



How can you get a burn through unless the wire was tye wrapped to, or run against, a grounded surface? The short story is that you cannot.



The weakest location on my engines is the plug boot to plug junction. So use only the straight on ends, never a 90 degree end. I have been knocked on my *** by reaching past a plug boot while holding onto the chassis with the other hand. A good way to get killed. A beautifull orange arc lept from the back end of a new plug boot into my metal watch band. Fortunately I was hot and sweating, and got less than a leathal dose across my heart. More went through my skin.



An MSD at idle is hitting the plug 20 times per event. Idle is a bad RPM to get stung by an MSD. It has enough excess energy at the plug to operate the plug gap and still jump a 1 inch arc to you wedding ring or watch band.



One good way to judge how much power can be delivered by an ignition box is to look at power consumption in amps, vice RPM. Does it go up with RPM, go down with RPM or stay the same?



You want the one that goes up with RPM. If it isn't going in one end, it sure as hell isn't coming out the other, is it?



NASCAR beats the **** out of ignition systems. Note the MSD stickers on every car? Cup cars use MSD and some use a Mallory CD system. Pricy, but rock solid performance.



Lynn E. Hanover

teknics

yea some of what is in those writings i just didnt pay attention to since it was written by a company about the industry theyre involved in, but the fatcual evidence is there, and if you go to MSD's website youll see it on the front page of their wires bragging about their low resistance. Also if you fully read the article they gladly endorse competitors products, other then their wires, hell they even say NGK has good wires.



As for MSD itself, like I said i like their products got a whole lines worth of their stuff, its very good.



1Revvin7 - yea no problems...but:

A) does that mean your ignition system was operating at its full potential? did you compare it?

B) It takes only 1 lost engine to make it matter, doesnt it? I've personally seen the wires arc...without even having them tie-wrapped together or anything, seperated in the plastic seperator things and all.

C) Just cause you dont "see" a problem, does this mean there isnt one? You've never lost a motor for no reason? never had ANY ignition problems? No stumbling, no nothing?



and in parting here's something that sums it up pretty good:



"Although most new ignition wires will perform the function of conducting coil output to the spark plug, what is important to sophisticated race engine preparers and owners of production vehicles with exhaust emission controls is EMI suppression. All electronic devices can be effected by EMI emitted from ignition wires, and the problem is often exacerbated by installing a high-output ignition system. As production vehicles age, engine management sensors and wiring deteriorate and become more susceptible to EMI radiating from improperly suppressed ignition wires. To be truly effective, ignition wires need to be EMI suppressed for a reasonable time, while having the ability to maintain good conductance without overloading other ignition system components.



Engine tuners should also take into account that most stock engines and some hi-tech aftermarket engine management systems use resistance in ignition wires to sense additional information needed by the computer. "



so while you may have had "no problems with MSD wires" maybe something you wouldnt *relate* to the wires was in fact due to the wires, and you ran into an extra problem and had to do extra work because of bad wires?



Either way, don't wanna believe it fine, doesnt bother me, and in fact it doesnt involve me. People are only as valuable as the knowledge they have and how they apply said knowledge.



oh and also since NASCAR was mentioned:



"Since first introduced, progressive versions of Magnecor Race Wires have been consistently used by leading contenders all over the world, including those competing in SCCA, NASCAR, IMSA, NHRA and club events in the USA. To date, Magnecor USA has not sponsored any particular racer to promote the use of its ignition wires in competition events. All racers using Magnecor Race Wires do so to ensure their engines perform efficiently and without the risk of EMI from ignition wires ruining the enormous effort and expense necessary to prepare and tune engines for competition."



i think its better when people use products and arent PAID to use them...dont you think so?



kevin.

Lynn E. Hanover

Or, because they work OK and are supplied to the racers at no cost, which is a common practice. For example, do you think that Mario Andretti would allow anyone to pour Havoline motor oil into one of his Cosworth engines? No he would not. But the cars were black and sponsored by Havoline. So, what oil did they really use?



In the case of the MSDs in NASCAR, you can see them sitting on the dash, with the special NASCAR required connector in plain view. GM even has a P/N for them and theirs are blue instead of red.



The EMI might be more important in NASCAR because of the radios and the TV cameras.



I still want to see a side by side test on the features I described. I suspect that the top brands perform in such a tight range that there are no major advantages one over another. Also there will be some that say they are just Gods gift to electricity that are (when tested) absolute crap.



Why is there an Optima battery and sticker on my race car? It works fine and it was free.





Lynn E. Hanover

BDC

You're on the money, Teknics. Already went through this bullcrap late last year on my car and a couple others here. For me, my recommendation from now on will only be NGK stock wires. Period.



B

teknics

Thanks for the support, I actually read through some of your posts with ignition problems due to wires, didnt one of your customers also have arcing MSD wires?



I've seriously talked to and personally seen more MSD wires arcing then anything else. So far the best results I've seen have been straight stock NGK. I'm running Magnecor as a test to see if they are problem free, but i have plenty of sets of new stock NGK wires ready to jump in at a moments notice.



kevin.