Stud Kit Available
08-13-2005, 12:04 AM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 10,906
Torque rating is based on the studs. To get the desired stretch of the studs 120# ft lbs is required.
I have coatings for:
Rotor housings
Irons
Oil pumps
Bearings
Exhaust sleeves
Exhaust ports
Rotor faces, and sides
The only deal is half of them are specially blended for me, and I am in the test phase for those. I'll make a new post about them when if they work...
I have coatings for:
Rotor housings
Irons
Oil pumps
Bearings
Exhaust sleeves
Exhaust ports
Rotor faces, and sides
The only deal is half of them are specially blended for me, and I am in the test phase for those. I'll make a new post about them when if they work...
08-15-2005, 04:42 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 524
Originally Posted by 1Revvin7' date='Aug 12 2005, 09:04 PM
Torque rating is based on the studs. To get the desired stretch of the studs 120# ft lbs is required.
This is all well and good.
The point that is being made, however, is that even the stock tension bolts are too tough for the rotor housings. Run too hot and the aluminum tries to expand faster than the tension bolts. The tension bolts win, and the rotor housings get destroyed. Again, this is with stock bolts, torqued to sub-30lb-ft.
If you want more stretch, maybe thinner bolts would be a better option, as then you could get more heat tolerance without risking engine damage.
This is absolutely nothing new with aluminum engine parts. They have traditionally been weaker than the very fasteners that hold them together!
08-20-2005, 12:45 PM
#14
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
[quote name='heretic' date='Aug 15 2005, 01:42 PM']This is all well and good.
The point that is being made, however, is that even the stock tension bolts are too tough for the rotor housings. Run too hot and the aluminum tries to expand faster than the tension bolts. The tension bolts win, and the rotor housings get destroyed. Again, this is with stock bolts, torqued to sub-30lb-ft.
If you want more stretch, maybe thinner bolts would be a better option, as then you could get more heat tolerance without risking engine damage.
This is absolutely nothing new with aluminum engine parts. They have traditionally been weaker than the very fasteners that hold them together!
[/quote]
unless you have a porsche, then the head bolts come in the glovebox cause they broke....
The point that is being made, however, is that even the stock tension bolts are too tough for the rotor housings. Run too hot and the aluminum tries to expand faster than the tension bolts. The tension bolts win, and the rotor housings get destroyed. Again, this is with stock bolts, torqued to sub-30lb-ft.
If you want more stretch, maybe thinner bolts would be a better option, as then you could get more heat tolerance without risking engine damage.
This is absolutely nothing new with aluminum engine parts. They have traditionally been weaker than the very fasteners that hold them together!
[snapback]748748[/snapback]
[/quote]
unless you have a porsche, then the head bolts come in the glovebox cause they broke....
08-20-2005, 06:21 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: fredneck MD
Posts: 4,107
[quote name='1Revvin7' date='Aug 19 2005, 10:12 PM']I just assembled a motor today with the kit.
The rotor housings were mic'd before and after and did not crush at all, even down to the .001"
[/quote]
That isnt what he is talking about.
Run that bitch hot a few times and report back...
The rotor housings were mic'd before and after and did not crush at all, even down to the .001"
[snapback]750374[/snapback]
[/quote]
That isnt what he is talking about.
Run that bitch hot a few times and report back...
08-21-2005, 04:07 PM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 10,906
[quote name='rfreeman27' date='Aug 20 2005, 06:21 PM']That isnt what he is talking about.
Run that bitch hot a few times and report back...
[/quote]
My reply wasn't aimed at him; several people think the rotor housings would crush. I am going to run several motors with the kit. But that won't really matter, the next thing I will hear is " but does it last 50k miles, 100k, what about 800rwhp, what about 800rwhp @ 13k rpms for 100k miles......."
Run that bitch hot a few times and report back...
[snapback]750540[/snapback]
[/quote]
My reply wasn't aimed at him; several people think the rotor housings would crush. I am going to run several motors with the kit. But that won't really matter, the next thing I will hear is " but does it last 50k miles, 100k, what about 800rwhp, what about 800rwhp @ 13k rpms for 100k miles......."
08-22-2005, 04:07 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minneapolis,MN
Posts: 500
[quote name='1Revvin7' date='Aug 19 2005, 07:12 PM']I just assembled a motor today with the kit.
The rotor housings were mic'd before and after and did not crush at all, even down to the .001"
[/quote]
El, read my post again. Nobody cares about the width of the housings. The hard metal rotor liner expands differently than the aluminum that holds it in place. This causes the brittle surface to fold and is what creates those lines arround the edges of the rotor housings.
Pulling the engine toguther even harder will make this process worse.
Also, the ammount of force that creates housing deflection makes the increased force of friciton you have added still look miniscule. You have not solved any problems with your stud kit. In fact, if you torque these things to 120 its going to create more.
I can prove this to you. Torque an empty junk engine toguther without the dowel pins using the stock bolts. Now do another with you new studs.
Ok now hit one of the plates with a hammer, you will be amazed at how easy it is to get them to move arround even at your 120 lbs of torque. You will also realize that your new studs do jack unless they are holding the housings in place like the dowels. Thats why the guru kit needs you to machine your engine.
Detonation and preignition is 15,000-30,000 psi. Torquing the engine at 120 is nothing compared to that force! I truely cant bealive that somone as smart as you came up with such a lane-brain solution.
Remember, its what you learn after you know everything that counts el,
The rotor housings were mic'd before and after and did not crush at all, even down to the .001"
[snapback]750374[/snapback]
[/quote]
El, read my post again. Nobody cares about the width of the housings. The hard metal rotor liner expands differently than the aluminum that holds it in place. This causes the brittle surface to fold and is what creates those lines arround the edges of the rotor housings.
Pulling the engine toguther even harder will make this process worse.
Also, the ammount of force that creates housing deflection makes the increased force of friciton you have added still look miniscule. You have not solved any problems with your stud kit. In fact, if you torque these things to 120 its going to create more.
I can prove this to you. Torque an empty junk engine toguther without the dowel pins using the stock bolts. Now do another with you new studs.
Ok now hit one of the plates with a hammer, you will be amazed at how easy it is to get them to move arround even at your 120 lbs of torque. You will also realize that your new studs do jack unless they are holding the housings in place like the dowels. Thats why the guru kit needs you to machine your engine.
Detonation and preignition is 15,000-30,000 psi. Torquing the engine at 120 is nothing compared to that force! I truely cant bealive that somone as smart as you came up with such a lane-brain solution.
Remember, its what you learn after you know everything that counts el,
08-22-2005, 08:41 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 524
[quote name='rfreeman27' date='Aug 20 2005, 03:21 PM']That isnt what he is talking about.
Run that bitch hot a few times and report back...
[/quote]
Aye.
Aluminum expands at three times the rate of iron
At engine temperatures, aluminum gets sufficiently close to its melting point to lose a lot of strength. Maybe not weak enough for it to pour out into the oil pan, but enough to get tweaked under load.
Combine these two quirks, and you get the aluminum trying to force iron pieces apart, and the hotter it gets the more it tries to expand and the weaker it gets.
Mazda engineered the tension system to hold the engine together just enough when cold, yet still permit enough give for the engine to expand when hot. Proof that they did some scary-edge engineering is that you can blow coolant seals on a very cold engine, and yet you can also run the engine too hot and crush the rotor housings, which leads to blown coolant seals after it cools down because the tension bolts lose their tension, what with the housings being smaller and all.
Trapped between fire and ice.
As before, none of this is anything new. It's why when aluminum cylinder heads first started showing up, blown head gaskets were rather common, and these problems have been solved by using very long bolts that are stretched a lot when cold, yet have plenty of stretch left in them to accomodate thermal expansion.
How many people make sure that all engine parts, including the bolts, are kept at a climate controlled 70 degrees F before assembling the engine?
Run that bitch hot a few times and report back...
[snapback]750540[/snapback]
[/quote]
Aye.
Aluminum expands at three times the rate of iron
At engine temperatures, aluminum gets sufficiently close to its melting point to lose a lot of strength. Maybe not weak enough for it to pour out into the oil pan, but enough to get tweaked under load.
Combine these two quirks, and you get the aluminum trying to force iron pieces apart, and the hotter it gets the more it tries to expand and the weaker it gets.
Mazda engineered the tension system to hold the engine together just enough when cold, yet still permit enough give for the engine to expand when hot. Proof that they did some scary-edge engineering is that you can blow coolant seals on a very cold engine, and yet you can also run the engine too hot and crush the rotor housings, which leads to blown coolant seals after it cools down because the tension bolts lose their tension, what with the housings being smaller and all.
Trapped between fire and ice.
As before, none of this is anything new. It's why when aluminum cylinder heads first started showing up, blown head gaskets were rather common, and these problems have been solved by using very long bolts that are stretched a lot when cold, yet have plenty of stretch left in them to accomodate thermal expansion.
How many people make sure that all engine parts, including the bolts, are kept at a climate controlled 70 degrees F before assembling the engine?