This is one I posted over on the festering evil forum a couple days ago with moderate replies. I wouldn't mind hearing from you guys on this, especially ya fellow builder guys.



Here's my original post:



"I'm pitching this out to you all who've assembled any motors using the Rotary Aviation o-ring kit w/ the TES (teflon-encapsulated silicone) inner o-rings. Have any of you have any issues with not only assembly due to the o-rings being slightly too skinny diameter-wise but also with random, intermittent symptoms that suggest an overheated motor even though the motor has no history of it?"



Some of my replies to others' responses:



"That's been my experience. Most of the motors I built between '03 and '06 use that o-ring set. The problems I had with their o-rings were the orange, inner water jacket ones. I'm getting odd reports from a few customers here and there that are exhibiting partial symptoms of overheating for absolutely no reason whatsoever. None of the motors have overheating or water-burning history yet they are showing some of these symptoms that would say otherwise, even though it's usually only some of the symptoms instead of all of them. I discontinued using this o-ring set in mid-late '06 and have since reverted back to stock as I am beginning to believe that these inner o-rings from that RA set are not a good choice to use, even if the material and construction of the o-ring is superior (my original motivation for using them in the first place). I am also curious of the technical aspect of using a round o-ring in a square-ring land."



Basically, I'm done with these things. I won't build another motor with them nor will I ever recommend them again. The last motor I built with them was I think around Aug or Sept time as I've since gone back to stock. I'm sick of the fitment trouble with them. What's taking a typical 3-6 hour assembly job is taking two days sometimes because of those o-rings. I'm also sick of having to deal with some of these engines that are exhibiting such odd symptoms of overheating even though these motors have absolutely zero reason to be doing that. The only consistent thing is those o-rings. Heck, even a buddy of mine, Mario, told me about how his car was spitting coolant out of the exhaust the other day after having let the thing sit for a week. It's blowing white smoke that smells like syrup yet it has never overheated once.



What do you guys think? Don't get me wrong; I am a fan of the teflon-encapsulated silicone idea, but I don't think the RA o-ring is the right way to go about it on our engines.



B

Found a couple of pictures of what I'm talkin' about.



Here's some from an engine I built in summer '04 that had one of those o-rings pop out of the groove and shear during assembly. It required me tearing nearly the whole thing down and replacing the ring. Two pictures show the sheared o-ring. The other pictures show my miserable attempts at "weighting" the o-ring down in place, forcing it to adhere to the shape of the iron's o-ring land. The sheared o-ring "event" occured after all this effort.



Wonderful.



B

I have yet to have a problem with them. To get around the fitment issue, I took a piece of 1/2" MDF, and cut it to the same size as the groove, and scewed it to another piece slightly larger. I usually keep o-ring kits on hand, and just leave them on that until I need to use the seals. They come out perfectly shaped every time, and drop right into the groove. Theyre even easier to install than the stock seals like that.



I could certainly see even a slightly damaged o-ring causing the overheating problems, and its very easy to damage the o-rings if theyre not pre-formed to the groove. Like I said, I have yet to have a problem since I have been using that board to form them to shape.

This is a bit of an ideological question I suppose, but nonetheless one I feel that's valid: Why in the world should we have to do this to o-rings that are already specifically and decidedly sold for engine use? What's going to happen to those of us that aren't as intuitive as you that just assume they're good and go for building the motor with the rings as-is? At best, it seems like a very bad way to sell a product IMO.



B

I agree, but think about it this way. The material engineering on those o-rings is solid. The problem is they arent engineered specifically for our application. While Im sure RA could spend a little time forming them to shape before selling them, it would add to the price. So from a business perspective, you could charge more for a superior product, or less for an imperfect one. Who is to say one is bad business, because in the end, both are profitable. And isnt that the point of business?





Heres wahat I use to form the o-rings:

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/gal..._74_922830.jpg

I don't agree entirely. The purpose of business is to make a profit. That profit, for a business to survive in the long run, needs to be done reasonably and well. Part of that reasonable work needs to be quality control, not to mention good advertising. When I go to the RA website, for example, and check out their "13B O-Ring Kit", and see nothing else nor any warnings concerning having to do any extra work, I am fully expecting to spend my money on a kit that's tailoured specifically to the engine that doesn't require any extra "assembly" or "modification" on my part. That's part of my whole beef with this -- There's been so many times where I've purchased these o-rings kits that sometimes they fit just fine and yet sometimes they didn't, requiring some sort of trickery. So I rhetorically beg the question again, "why should I have to modify these o-rings (half of the time) to get them to fit? Why should I have to do any work at all when I've already spent my money on a product that wasn't advertised with any extra information regarding work on my part?" If they chose to "fix" these o-rings by "molding" them into the inner o-ring land and then raising the price, then it wouldn't be a fair thing to do IMO, as a consumer. It seems to me that if they're motivated to do a great job and sell a killer product, they ought to be conscious of this fact and build the o-ring right so it's sold and delivered exactly as it's advertised.



B

http://www.rotaryeng.net/O-rings-sizes-and...uct-6-30-06.txt



Thought this info was pretty much common knowledge.





http://www.rotaryeng.net/TEFLON_COATED_O_RINGS_IMG4.GIF

http://www.rotaryeng.net/O_RING_STORAGE_BOARD.JPG



Having custom made to order rings is an expensive proposition,,,



ask me how I know

I know what you mean about the fitment issues, they tend to pop out at times. Before I lower each plate I check them to make sure they are ok and use a lot of frozen vaseline. If I use vaseline that is room temp they seem to pop out more. I leave the vaseline in the fridge for a while and ONLY apply the vaseline to the irons to hold them in place just before I close them together. That works for me.



I just started building motors for others (no porting) and have used them with no issues yet. I also have used them in my motor for a few years and reused them for a few rebuilds with no issues.



Anthony

True bolt-and-go components in the aftermarket are rare beasts. Almost everything we do involves some modification, tweaking, or fabrication in order to make it fit properly. This seems to go double for so-called "kits", too.



Even the Mazda factory seals aren't formed-to-shape, and require a bit of fiddling to get them to stay seated in their grooves.

Fiddling is one thing heretic, but having to use a wooden template to mold an o-ring that doesn't otherwise fit or questionably does is something entirely different. It's jacked up three of my builds because those o-rings don't otherwise fit some of the time. Having to do modifications is fine; I've been doing that for 10 years now, but good grief -- when you buy o-rings per an "O-ring kit" you'd expect them atleast be basically reliable, right? They ought to be able to fit the stinkin' engine they're designed for and not give these kinds of annoying problems over and over, right? Not to mention these strange, overheating-like issues they seem to show....



B

It's like anything else aftermarket, if it doesn't work as advertised, then it's not worth using. As you've noted, and done.



We've had similar/worse problems with a certain brand of (high end) cylinder head gaskets that we use. Similar, in that they needed fiddling to use, worse, because sometimes they were just plain manufactured wrong, and we wouldn't know until the engine was fully assembled and installed. I won't name names, because the company has more than made good as far as redesign and compensating us for our losses, and that kind of integrity is rare in this industry. The only reason I don't use them in my non-rotary cars is simply because they don't make them for my tools of choice. (Yet.)



I've had no problems with the 18 gauge wire method for rotaries. Shocked at first that it worked at all, but work it does, and costs a hell of a lot less, too.

I have used a couple of sets of the RA o-rings, then went back to mazda o-rings. I find even though they are not damaged, the engines did use a little coolant. They are nice in that they are reusable, as I took apart one engine many times to try different ports and reused the o-rings, but that motor did sip a little coolant even though the o rings were not damaged in anyway. It was like add a about a quart every month usage on an over 400 rwhp engine. Never had that with stock o-rings. And the shape of them does suck. With the mazda rings, I can install and stick them to the iron with one hand most of the time. Besides cost I have found no other reason for the aftermarket rings. BTW the petroleum jelly in Japan they use is about twice the thickness of vaseline, I need to find some like that here.

Also the corner seal rubber they supply last about 1000 km's, it turns rock hard and crumbles away to dust in no time at all.

Have you contacted Rotary Aviation about it?



Anthony

Nope, I haven't. While it wouldn't be fair to judge them on a motive that I'm not certain of, my guess is they wouldn't go out of their way to make a change to the o-ring or their overall process just because I'm complaining. My suspicion is such because of my perceived lack of quality control on their part when they manufactured and flooded the market initially with their apex seal that was shown to produce rapidly accelerative wear on rotor housings. Because of stuff like that, and because of the randomness of the problems I've had with their o-rings, I wonder if it'd even be worth it in the first place to write them about it.



B

I don't see why they couldn't place them on a wooden mold themselves before shipping them out.

It's interesting ready Brian. I personally don't have any experience with them, as I won't try anything but the OEM seals because they work every time. If there were an issue with the OE seals not working, then I would be on the hunt for something better to replace them. I have had to stockers up to 150C in the Falken FD, and not had them fail. Infact, I haven't had an O-ring failure in a very long time, and even then, it wasn't the o-rings fault. It was mine (I pinched it) and it was my motor, so no harm no foul https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif



My opinion is for long coolant seal life, it requires annual coolant change and flush, and obviously not overheating the engine to a point that either the o-rings fail or the irons/housings warp. Most of the selection of parts for a rebuild depends on what the builder likes to use. In my case, I prefer mostly OEM parts for gaskets, o-rings and seals as they last well, and install fairly easy.

Hi Dave,



I originally started using them because of the superior technology of encaspulation of silicone within a teflon jacket as well as because of the re-usability factor. I liked the idea of popping apart a motor and re-using all the o-rings, therefore potentially reducing rebuild costs. But after the inconsistency with this particular kit, I doubt I'll try it again, unless I have the o-rings made myself. The stockers have been proven to work for a gajillion years, so why fix somethin' if it ain't broke, right?



B

yeah reuseability would be neato, but thats the only real problem with the stockers, that ive seen. sure when you get to 200,000miles and 20 years, the water seals are tired, but so is everything else....

I agree completely, but you are right, alot of the time the QC isn't what you as the builder would like to see. Like the oil control rings that other companies make out of Viton. One company that makes them, they are a standard size, or are too big, so they are really hard to install. We took the inner and outer o-rings to a local company that makes o-rings out of any type material, and they made them exactly the same size as the stock ones, and they are a piece of cake to install. We don't even sell them anymore because I am running low, and don't want to have to order another 1000 of each size again https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif



But yeah, the old saying still holds more true than anything. If it ain't broke, don't fix it https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif

Single or multi-strand 18gauge wire? You silicone around it I assume? I think I'm gonna try this on a spare 12a https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif

what about 18g wire? for both inner and outer? explaine please

I decided that since I was cutting out a section of the inner "O" ring when building a "J" bridgeport, that the sealing was not that critical because there is only the contact between the rotor housing outboard of the now missing "O" ring and the cast iron. Only a layer of 100% GE silicone tub and tile caulk helps do the sealing.



I came across a supply of aircraft wire with a Teflon insulator and silver tinned stranded copper wire. Very nice wire.



I gave that a try in a 12A engine and used just the wire and a very small bead of silicone in the groove before pressing in the wire. I reused the black outer "O" ring by removing a small piece of the ring by cutting it through with a razor at a steep angle, and placing the joint at the top of the engine, so any leak

would then be visible. With a spot of silicone at the joint, I never had a leak. It ran a whole season. I redid the engine and ran the very same piece of wire another year. A friend of mine did the same thing but with regular Beldon 18 gage hookup wire (maybe Chinese)



He had no problems.



I had never had a problem with the stock seal, but sometimes I didn't have one when I needed to build an engine.



This is not some hop up trick. It just happens to work. If available, I would use the stock "O" ring seals.



This applies to NA 12As and early 13Bs. Inner seal only.





Lynn E. Hanover



Picture is the Mistral aircraft engine based on the Mazda.

18Gauge wire? Now I've seen everything.

I sent an email over to RA regarding the O Rings, here is the first response:



"What I CAN say is that I've personally sold over 1000 sets of the telfon rings in the past 5 years - those are just the sales that went out to private builders and do not include the engines that were over hauled by our partner builders. Of those sales, the only complaint I have ever received about the telfon O rings was once when we had a manufacturing error and the rings were too small. Of course we replaced all those rings (5 to be exact) at no charge to the customer. We not only DRIVE these O rings, but we also fly them in our personal plane, and they are also in use in several of our friend's planes. In retrospect, the fact that we can sell any product with so FEW complaints is rather remarkable in itself.



As you know, most the parts that we (or any other parts supplier) sell end up being installed by builders with varying skill sets and experience. The number of variables involved in any single engine overhaul is high. Once the engine is back together, and even if the job is of the highest quality, we then have to deal with how the engine is treated after it is back in service. We have to consider whether any modifications were made to the engine .. whether it was raced.. overheated for any reason.. boosted with nitrous.. the possible variables go on and on and on. In spite of ALL those factors, we run an average of .001% problem rate. I really believe that if there was a consistent manufacturing or design problem with the teflon O rings, we would have received a LOT more complaints and perhaps most significant, we would have experienced problems with our own engines or with those of our close friends. So far, we have not had that happen.



I also want to say that we encourage ANY CUSTOMER WHO HAS A PROBLEM to contact Tracy or I. If there is an issue with any of our products we like to know about it. We stand behind our products and if there is information that a customer is willing to share which will improve the reliability of anything we sell, or if we need to replace a defective item for a customer, we need to hear from the customer.



I will get back to you again after a tech review of the email."

2nd response:



HI again Anthony - I talked with 4 commercial builders who use our teflon o rings.



I do not want to say anything to offend any builders, (and again, we are NOT saying that product issue can't happen) but the overall consensus is that the cause for "sudden over heating", etc is improper installation of the seals. When properly installed the round seal compresses perfectly into the "square" shaped groove. It IS correct that the seals do NOT install as easily as the stock seals - that is a fact. However, builders who use the seals believe the extra time is worth the increased longevity of the seals (which are usually reusable even after multple engine opens) . We have specific instructions we are going to start adding when we ship the O rings due to the feedback that you forwarded to me. Again, we appreciate the feedback, we are going to add the instructions and hopefully help future builder's to avoid disappointing results with the O rings.

What did you expect them to say. Yeah theres a problem?



I am glad to hear they use them.



Unfortunately I don't feel the same way after building 7 engines w/ them and pulling one apart. I can guarantee the oring wasn't pinched. I personally don't feel they fit the groove as well when torqued down.



Think about something, when you were a kid did any round toy fit into a square one? Why should I start trying it now.

LOL....

In my opinion, they use the customer as their R&D department..

Just to add to the square groove, round ring subject, I tried these same style of oring in another application. I was rebuilding solenoid valves with round profile o-rings at work since the square oem rings were 4 weeks delivery, when I got the real rings and did the re-rebuild, I found the round profile ring had been extruded from the square ring land and made into a teflon wafer , they were just starting to leak, the lowest pressure area was to the outside of the valve and the material was being exposed oustide the valve body... Being that the land was round, as was the ring, fitment of the ring to the land wasnt any kind of problem. That application was liquid at 34 F and 60 psi..It might be more than the profile, could be the ring to groove size relationship as well.

Why can't they just be honest about it? They're basically using their customer base as their QC (quality-control) department. Basically, what they're saying is, they've never had any complaints. Well, I'm someone who's complaining who was also a fairly consiistently buying customer. Does my complaint not matter? Am I all the sudden thrown into the categories of not being a "commercial" builder or that I'm automatically "installing them wrong"? Good Lord! It's a ring that fits in the same-sized groove! How the hell can anyone screw that up!?



B

That's my opinion as well, Max. It seems that's what they're doing, similar to what I felt they were doing with their apex seals when they initially flooded the market with them in late '03 prior to several people coming back with scattered results of abnormal rotor housing and apex seal groove wear.



I still don't get it. Why ammend the installation document with notes regarding their difficulty of installation if there isn't a problem with their o-ring in the first place? (Remember the 0.001% figure) When the o-ring diameter is correct, the o-ring goes right in and is a piece of cake to install. Why make a comment then about their difficulty? Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here but I still feel as if their response to Anthony wasn't an honest one. Does my complaint all the sudden not count? Am I not a "commercial" builder (what the heck qualifies for that anyways?) And, why are they not acknowledging my data regarding random overheating symptoms of motors that have never exhibited such symptoms prior nor ever enountered any conditions that would contribute to overheating?



I know all about the stigma associated with warrantying motors. I get asked alot on whether or not I do. I know full well being not only a builder but also an active enthusiast what can happen with a motor when the hardware isn't setup right or is abused or neglected in ways that can contribute to failure. I'm not an idiot. I know what things can happen having caused them myself in the past. With this, and while I'm not a perfect person, it seems to me that it would behoove them to take what I have to say seriously when I assert that I've got motors that I've built with their o-rings that are experiencing problems that I may have to potentially fit the bill for (arguably) due to the use of those same o-rings.



Goodness gracious. It's this kind of stuff that really hacks me off and is also one of the reasons why I am no longer a customer.



B

not to single RA out, but it seems like there have been so many shops that come out with some product or service, and then they overnight, get this "they are the best" reputation.



and then you wait a few weeks or months and the stuff that was some miracle save all, is now trash.



if you need an example, how about pineapple? or the "anti detonation kit"

I certainly share the same feeling. I'm also annoyed about the aftereffects of these components.



_______________________

Mazda 5 Accessories - Download The 2006 Mazda 5 Accessories Catalog by Mazda USA

Plenty of companies do this. Microsoft Windows for instance sends bug reports to MS when an application crashes. Same concept. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif

But your computer doesn't overheat and ruin parts inside if this happens.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif yeah. hehe. okay. </hijack>

Update:



I got a customer's motor today that was suffering from the intermittent overheating symptoms that I'd listed prior in this thread. Infact, some of the symptoms I was complaining about were from this same motor.



I tore it down today and, not to my surprise, it had failed due to the exact reasons that I suspected: All four of the inner water jacket o-rings (the RA teflon-encapsulated silicone ones) had breaks in the teflon jacketting around the silicone core in various places; namely from TDC all the way around to BDC (bottom dead center below the intake ports).



Attached are several pictures to illustrate.



B

Whoa!

Whatcha think?



B

I think those ports look great! Also glad we have the anwser. All the hours upon hours of testing double-triple checking everything is finally over!

And RA is telling people to put these in airplanes? Come on.

I have another customer with a 3rd gen and 13BREW that I built with these same o-rings that's bringing his car up sometime in May with the same symptoms.



Nobody can tell me with any level of confidence that I installed these o-rings improperly. Nobody can dismiss this as some sort of fluke or whatever the "0.001%" comment thing was all about. This is what's happened and I suspect the four-odd motors that I've built aren't the only symptomatic motors out there.



B