R&d-ing Water Jacket Replacements
05-25-2005, 07:26 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 296
So in my every pursuit of cutting cost on a rebuild. I'm looking into finding an alternative to Mazda BLACK & ORANGE/GREEN water jacket seals.
idea 1. Replication of OEM seals. Sounded like a great idea. But since Mazda is metric that throws a monkey wrench into the equation in price. So the best deal I found was for 4000 units @ $4.00 each... YIKES I could try to force a STANDRED seal but that’s still a special order coming to about the same price.
ALSO I wanted something better then stock seals of rubber, silicones, and Teflon. I thought of those materials was thought of as low grade options.
idea 2. I was watching a special on adhesives on one of the discovery channels. Anyways it was really cool , material science is amazing. then <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> "BAM"</span> i could just squeeze some type of sealant in the grooves and save $100. Right? Sorta but not to far off. I'm in talks with PPG AEROSAPCE and 3M AEROSPACE/MARINE about materials. Its looking good ,the stuff they have kicks mazda OEM *** and then some. We are talking about flash temps of 2500 oF.
I talked to them about chemical resistance(fuel and oil)
SAG(don’t want it dripping out of the seals while you putting the engine together)
Sealant crush (how much it will squish and to what point it will seal to)
hardness
moisture transfer(water)
lifespan (all the different materials are about 20,000 hr)
temp range.
sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)
cure time
expansion and/or shrinkage
I'm getting samples in next week. I'll find a gunny pig (engine) and post more. I figure that even at $500 a gallon that i could make close to 50-75 full engines with that stuff.
**NOTE please do not go to your local autozone and put Hi-Temp RTV sealant in the grooves and think it will hold.
idea 1. Replication of OEM seals. Sounded like a great idea. But since Mazda is metric that throws a monkey wrench into the equation in price. So the best deal I found was for 4000 units @ $4.00 each... YIKES I could try to force a STANDRED seal but that’s still a special order coming to about the same price.
ALSO I wanted something better then stock seals of rubber, silicones, and Teflon. I thought of those materials was thought of as low grade options.
idea 2. I was watching a special on adhesives on one of the discovery channels. Anyways it was really cool , material science is amazing. then <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> "BAM"</span> i could just squeeze some type of sealant in the grooves and save $100. Right? Sorta but not to far off. I'm in talks with PPG AEROSAPCE and 3M AEROSPACE/MARINE about materials. Its looking good ,the stuff they have kicks mazda OEM *** and then some. We are talking about flash temps of 2500 oF.
I talked to them about chemical resistance(fuel and oil)
SAG(don’t want it dripping out of the seals while you putting the engine together)
Sealant crush (how much it will squish and to what point it will seal to)
hardness
moisture transfer(water)
lifespan (all the different materials are about 20,000 hr)
temp range.
sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)
cure time
expansion and/or shrinkage
I'm getting samples in next week. I'll find a gunny pig (engine) and post more. I figure that even at $500 a gallon that i could make close to 50-75 full engines with that stuff.
**NOTE please do not go to your local autozone and put Hi-Temp RTV sealant in the grooves and think it will hold.
05-25-2005, 07:40 AM
#2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 296
PERMATEX is the most common RTV. Please do not use.
RTV SEALANTS
These sealants are rates for HI-temps up to 700 oF but they do not meet the:
SAG
Sealant crush
hardness
moisture transfer
sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)
that are need for the engine.
RTV SEALANTS
These sealants are rates for HI-temps up to 700 oF but they do not meet the:
SAG
Sealant crush
hardness
moisture transfer
sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)
that are need for the engine.
05-25-2005, 11:03 AM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 186
[quote name='guitarjunkie28' date='May 25 2005, 07:42 AM']what's wrong with the rotary aviation coolant seals? i've never seen one blow.
[/quote]
I'm with him can't beat $40.00 especially when you can reuse them. http://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=...=viewitem&id=27
[snapback]717566[/snapback]
[/quote]
I'm with him can't beat $40.00 especially when you can reuse them. http://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=...=viewitem&id=27
05-25-2005, 09:50 PM
#5
Fabricator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Ohio (Hebron) Zephyrhills Fla.
Posts: 1,322
[quote name='chase78' date='May 25 2005, 04:26 AM']So in my every pursuit of cutting cost on a rebuild. I'm looking into finding an alternative to Mazda BLACK & ORANGE/GREEN water jacket seals.
**NOTE please do not go to your local autozone and put Hi-Temp RTV sealant in the grooves and think it will hold.
[/quote]
I had a spool of Teflon insulated silver tinned copper conductor aircraft wire, that I made the compression seals out of. The wire was just short of hydrauliced in the groove when torqued up. I added a small bead of GE 100% silicone bathtub caulk to keep the wire in the groove and improve sealing.
It works fine. A friend just uses junk 18 gage wire and silicone and he has no problems. There are rules for "O" ring installations in engineering hand books.
For the water seal (the black one) he has a spool of round "O" ring material, and just cuts off what he needs. I reuse the same seals over and over. Never a problem. I look inside the engine at the end of each year.
Lynn E. Hanover
**NOTE please do not go to your local autozone and put Hi-Temp RTV sealant in the grooves and think it will hold.
[snapback]717525[/snapback]
[/quote]
I had a spool of Teflon insulated silver tinned copper conductor aircraft wire, that I made the compression seals out of. The wire was just short of hydrauliced in the groove when torqued up. I added a small bead of GE 100% silicone bathtub caulk to keep the wire in the groove and improve sealing.
It works fine. A friend just uses junk 18 gage wire and silicone and he has no problems. There are rules for "O" ring installations in engineering hand books.
For the water seal (the black one) he has a spool of round "O" ring material, and just cuts off what he needs. I reuse the same seals over and over. Never a problem. I look inside the engine at the end of each year.
Lynn E. Hanover
05-26-2005, 08:54 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii USA
Posts: 925
[quote name='chase78' date='May 25 2005, 04:40 AM']PERMATEX is the most common RTV. Please do not use.
These sealants are rates for HI-temps up to 700 oF but they do not meet the:
SAG
Sealant crush
hardness
moisture transfer
sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)
that are need for the engine.
[/quote]
I don't know what your point is.
I use teflon encapsulated silicone o-rings in rebuilds.
They have worked fine for me so far.
They are $10 each.
You want something cheaper???
Cheaper will bite you in the ***.
-Ted
These sealants are rates for HI-temps up to 700 oF but they do not meet the:
SAG
Sealant crush
hardness
moisture transfer
sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)
that are need for the engine.
[snapback]717530[/snapback]
[/quote]
I don't know what your point is.
I use teflon encapsulated silicone o-rings in rebuilds.
They have worked fine for me so far.
They are $10 each.
You want something cheaper???
Cheaper will bite you in the ***.
-Ted
05-26-2005, 10:10 AM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,108
[quote name='banzaitoyota' date='May 26 2005, 09:48 AM']Not exactly cost effective though........ 
[/quote]
What were the sayings in motorsports?
1.) Cheap, Fast, Reliable... Pick 2
2.) How do you make a small fortune in motorsports? - Start with a big fortune
3.) There are only two types of racers out there... the losers, and the cheaters
4.) You get what you paid for
5.) I didn't have time to do it right the first time, but I had time to do it twice
6.) If you think it's going to break, it will probably break
[snapback]717906[/snapback]
[/quote]
What were the sayings in motorsports?
1.) Cheap, Fast, Reliable... Pick 2
2.) How do you make a small fortune in motorsports? - Start with a big fortune
3.) There are only two types of racers out there... the losers, and the cheaters
4.) You get what you paid for
5.) I didn't have time to do it right the first time, but I had time to do it twice
6.) If you think it's going to break, it will probably break
