So in my every pursuit of cutting cost on a rebuild. I'm looking into finding an alternative to Mazda BLACK & ORANGE/GREEN water jacket seals.



idea 1. Replication of OEM seals. Sounded like a great idea. But since Mazda is metric that throws a monkey wrench into the equation in price. So the best deal I found was for 4000 units @ $4.00 each... YIKES I could try to force a STANDRED seal but that’s still a special order coming to about the same price.

ALSO I wanted something better then stock seals of rubber, silicones, and Teflon. I thought of those materials was thought of as low grade options.



idea 2. I was watching a special on adhesives on one of the discovery channels. Anyways it was really cool , material science is amazing. then <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> "BAM"</span> i could just squeeze some type of sealant in the grooves and save $100. Right? Sorta but not to far off. I'm in talks with PPG AEROSAPCE and 3M AEROSPACE/MARINE about materials. Its looking good ,the stuff they have kicks mazda OEM ass and then some. We are talking about flash temps of 2500 oF.



I talked to them about chemical resistance(fuel and oil)

SAG(don’t want it dripping out of the seals while you putting the engine together)

Sealant crush (how much it will squish and to what point it will seal to)

hardness

moisture transfer(water)

lifespan (all the different materials are about 20,000 hr)

temp range.

sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)

cure time

expansion and/or shrinkage

I'm getting samples in next week. I'll find a gunny pig (engine) and post more. I figure that even at $500 a gallon that i could make close to 50-75 full engines with that stuff.





**NOTE please do not go to your local autozone and put Hi-Temp RTV sealant in the grooves and think it will hold.

PERMATEX is the most common RTV. Please do not use.





RTV SEALANTS



These sealants are rates for HI-temps up to 700 oF but they do not meet the:



SAG

Sealant crush

hardness

moisture transfer

sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)



that are need for the engine.

what's wrong with the rotary aviation coolant seals? i've never seen one blow.

[quote name='guitarjunkie28' date='May 25 2005, 07:42 AM']what's wrong with the rotary aviation coolant seals? i've never seen one blow.


[/quote]



I'm with him can't beat $40.00 especially when you can reuse them. http://rotaryresources.com/modules.php?op=...=viewitem&id=27

[quote name='chase78' date='May 25 2005, 04:26 AM']So in my every pursuit of cutting cost on a rebuild. I'm looking into finding an alternative to Mazda BLACK & ORANGE/GREEN water jacket seals.



**NOTE please do not go to your local autozone and put Hi-Temp RTV sealant in the grooves and think it will hold.


[/quote]





I had a spool of Teflon insulated silver tinned copper conductor aircraft wire, that I made the compression seals out of. The wire was just short of hydrauliced in the groove when torqued up. I added a small bead of GE 100% silicone bathtub caulk to keep the wire in the groove and improve sealing.



It works fine. A friend just uses junk 18 gage wire and silicone and he has no problems. There are rules for "O" ring installations in engineering hand books.



For the water seal (the black one) he has a spool of round "O" ring material, and just cuts off what he needs. I reuse the same seals over and over. Never a problem. I look inside the engine at the end of each year.



Lynn E. Hanover

[quote name='chase78' date='May 25 2005, 04:40 AM']PERMATEX is the most common RTV. Please do not use.



These sealants are rates for HI-temps up to 700 oF but they do not meet the:



SAG

Sealant crush

hardness

moisture transfer

sealant "something" ( how much movement it will take before breaking the seal)



that are need for the engine.


[/quote]

I don't know what your point is.

I use teflon encapsulated silicone o-rings in rebuilds.

They have worked fine for me so far.

They are $10 each.

You want something cheaper???

Cheaper will bite you in the ass.





-Ted

I like the banzaitoyota type coolant seals.

[quote name='Cheers!' date='May 26 2005, 09:38 AM']I like the banzaitoyota type coolant seals.


[/quote]





Not exactly cost effective though........ https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

[quote name='banzaitoyota' date='May 26 2005, 09:48 AM']Not exactly cost effective though........ https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png


[/quote]



What were the sayings in motorsports?



1.) Cheap, Fast, Reliable... Pick 2

2.) How do you make a small fortune in motorsports? - Start with a big fortune

3.) There are only two types of racers out there... the losers, and the cheaters

4.) You get what you paid for

5.) I didn't have time to do it right the first time, but I had time to do it twice

6.) If you think it's going to break, it will probably break

you can do a soft seal rebuild for under hundred bucks ..

Mcmaster is your friend

[quote name='Lynn E. Hanover' date='May 25 2005, 06:50 PM']I had a spool of Teflon insulated silver tinned copper conductor aircraft wire, that I made the compression seals out of. The wire was just short of hydrauliced in the groove when torqued up....



For the water seal (the black one) he has a spool of round "O" ring material, and just cuts off what he needs. I reuse the same seals over and over. Never a problem. I look inside the engine at the end of each year.



Lynn E. Hanover


[/quote]





Do you have a pic of what you are talking about ? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png I am a picture guy

just out of curiosity, anyone ever overheated a motor with the rotary aviation inners? i'm curious to see how they'd hold up...just not curious enough to find out the hard way https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

[quote name='guitarjunkie28' date='May 29 2005, 02:30 PM']just out of curiosity, anyone ever overheated a motor with the rotary aviation inners? i'm curious to see how they'd hold up...just not curious enough to find out the hard way https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png


[/quote]







A few times. It took pegging of the temp gauge 7-8 times before I had to replace the RA coolant seals. Stock seals can only take 2, maybe 3 times.



My car was plagued with cooling system failures in the past. Every single part of my cooling system has failed at least once, usually liberating the engine of its entire coolant supply. RA seals took the abuse well though.

nice to know--god forbid i ever find out first hand https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

[quote name='SomeGuy_sg' date='May 28 2005, 11:59 AM']Do you have a pic of what you are talking about ? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png I am a picture guy


[/quote]





The object was to replace the stock compression (square seals) one seldom has on hand when its time to throw an engine together. I never ocurred to me to take a picture of the wire. Its just wire. The fact that it had a Teflon insulator just made it a better choice. The outer seal, the black one, I call the water seal also comes in an overhaul set and are totally reusable. There is no requirement for these rings to be square. Sorry.





Bullwinkle Moose in the Lear jet says Hi.



Lynn E. Hanover