My Large Extended Ports
06-03-2005, 09:37 AM
#42
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: london uk
Posts: 79
[quote name='Nospig' date='Jun 3 2005, 01:00 AM']A little extend port i did for a friend. Note these are only sV turbo plates.
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nice work mate what the list of mods and how much psi will be going through those ports?
rgds
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nice work mate what the list of mods and how much psi will be going through those ports?
rgds
06-03-2005, 06:29 PM
#44
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 20
[quote name='BNA_ELLIS' date='Jun 3 2005, 05:22 AM']Great! Bevis is telling how much power I got and Butthead is telling what I didn't say. My last post on this bitching, but I suggest you get your info correct before you start posting what came or in this case did not come from outta my mouth.
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No need to hide what you said.
You may be interested to know that Clive also ran more than one 1/4 on the same day with the same power at 12.3 an 119/120 mph.
The 12.2 figure was his best time but as you rightly pointed out his terminal was lowish at 109 mph.
This seems to be only marginally slower than your figures on the strip.I am just trying to give you some correlation to work with as to the hp you are getting.
By the way this may not be my last post on the matter!!!???LOL!!
Just realise the spirit with which it is intended please.
The series 5 ported plates that are pictured on here have actually shown you some areas that you can increase your ports a little.In my opinion there is still more than this available.
Regards
Carl
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No need to hide what you said.
You may be interested to know that Clive also ran more than one 1/4 on the same day with the same power at 12.3 an 119/120 mph.
The 12.2 figure was his best time but as you rightly pointed out his terminal was lowish at 109 mph.
This seems to be only marginally slower than your figures on the strip.I am just trying to give you some correlation to work with as to the hp you are getting.
By the way this may not be my last post on the matter!!!???LOL!!
Just realise the spirit with which it is intended please.
The series 5 ported plates that are pictured on here have actually shown you some areas that you can increase your ports a little.In my opinion there is still more than this available.
Regards
Carl
06-03-2005, 08:11 PM
#45
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8
The dyno that I use is really accurate. Yes, it is a AWD dynojet. And actually, you have less control over a dynojet to "up" the numbers, than a dyno dynamics, mustang, or dynapack.
The Dyno Dynamics lets you corrcet a certain chart the way you want it, you can just multiply by a certain number, and it will do the magic number. Dynojet does not let you do that.
Mustang dynos are way off too, if not setup right. Same for the dyno pack.
On our dynojet I have dynoed MANY cars, and I can tell you, it is consistent. And since the dynojet is the most used dyno in the US, it makes it a lot easier to compare charts among shops.
I DID 445rwhp on a T72 street ported. Boost spiked to 15psi, and fell to 11psi. The boost controller was bad. Next time I am installing a 1bar spring in the wastegate. We will see what it will do if holding 15psi to redline.
I also agree with you that you cannot compare numbers from 2 dynos, especially if they are in a dufferent geographic area. But on our dyno a stock GTR dynoes 285whp, a stock Evo8 dynoes 225whp, a T67 EVo8 dynoes 505whp, a 350z dynoes 225-230whp, etc. So that is consistent with the other dyno charts I have seen. Also, we put an eo that dynoed 447awhp about a year ago. We dynoed it again just recently, and with teh same tune, it did 445whp. What else should I say?
To me, 550whp on a setup like his is VERY possible...
About your torque theory: take a twin HKS 3240 GTR for example. It does 1100+whp at 32 psi. How does your math apply there?
[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='Jun 3 2005, 12:17 AM']If by every dyno you mean dynojets, then yes. They are horrendously innacurate.
Let's go back to first principles. A turbo is a torque multiplier. In an isothermal system the boosted torque is simply the NA torque times the pressure ratio. In a real system the adiabatic nature of a turbo means that this is not true, but it gives us an upper boundary for a perfect turbo/intercooler setup.
So at a pressure ratio of 2.2 if the inlet temperature is the same as ambient, you will get 2.2 times the torque that the normally aspirated engine gives you. You cannot get more than this.
You have said that 550whp is possible at 2.2 bar. Lets just assume for the moment that all the tyre/tranmission losses magically disappear and the 550 is real repeatable flywheel HP. Let us also assume that this 550 is at 7500RPM.
550/2.2 is 250HP or 175lbft of torque. Now, even with carefully tuned exhausts and inlets I have not seen any evidence that a street port can get to that sort of torque. Bridge ports yes, but not street ports. 160lbft is nearer the mark, and that's with higher comp rotors.
But being optimistic and taking the 160lbft number for the big street port and tweaked inlet gives 160*7500/5250=228HP at 7500. Times 2.2 and for a perfect turbo/intercooler setup you get 502HP. This is the absolute maximum. You will actually get less.
You cannot magically create power from nowhere. That is what I am trying to say.
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The Dyno Dynamics lets you corrcet a certain chart the way you want it, you can just multiply by a certain number, and it will do the magic number. Dynojet does not let you do that.
Mustang dynos are way off too, if not setup right. Same for the dyno pack.
On our dynojet I have dynoed MANY cars, and I can tell you, it is consistent. And since the dynojet is the most used dyno in the US, it makes it a lot easier to compare charts among shops.
I DID 445rwhp on a T72 street ported. Boost spiked to 15psi, and fell to 11psi. The boost controller was bad. Next time I am installing a 1bar spring in the wastegate. We will see what it will do if holding 15psi to redline.
I also agree with you that you cannot compare numbers from 2 dynos, especially if they are in a dufferent geographic area. But on our dyno a stock GTR dynoes 285whp, a stock Evo8 dynoes 225whp, a T67 EVo8 dynoes 505whp, a 350z dynoes 225-230whp, etc. So that is consistent with the other dyno charts I have seen. Also, we put an eo that dynoed 447awhp about a year ago. We dynoed it again just recently, and with teh same tune, it did 445whp. What else should I say?
To me, 550whp on a setup like his is VERY possible...
About your torque theory: take a twin HKS 3240 GTR for example. It does 1100+whp at 32 psi. How does your math apply there?
[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='Jun 3 2005, 12:17 AM']If by every dyno you mean dynojets, then yes. They are horrendously innacurate.
Let's go back to first principles. A turbo is a torque multiplier. In an isothermal system the boosted torque is simply the NA torque times the pressure ratio. In a real system the adiabatic nature of a turbo means that this is not true, but it gives us an upper boundary for a perfect turbo/intercooler setup.
So at a pressure ratio of 2.2 if the inlet temperature is the same as ambient, you will get 2.2 times the torque that the normally aspirated engine gives you. You cannot get more than this.
You have said that 550whp is possible at 2.2 bar. Lets just assume for the moment that all the tyre/tranmission losses magically disappear and the 550 is real repeatable flywheel HP. Let us also assume that this 550 is at 7500RPM.
550/2.2 is 250HP or 175lbft of torque. Now, even with carefully tuned exhausts and inlets I have not seen any evidence that a street port can get to that sort of torque. Bridge ports yes, but not street ports. 160lbft is nearer the mark, and that's with higher comp rotors.
But being optimistic and taking the 160lbft number for the big street port and tweaked inlet gives 160*7500/5250=228HP at 7500. Times 2.2 and for a perfect turbo/intercooler setup you get 502HP. This is the absolute maximum. You will actually get less.
You cannot magically create power from nowhere. That is what I am trying to say.
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06-04-2005, 07:35 AM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 162
I think you may have repeatability and accuracy slightly confused. It is a common mistake that even people who should know better can fall in to.
In your case repeatable is probably better than accurate, as you are trying to prove a gain with tuning. And if everyone is comparing dynojet HP fine, as long as they point this out and it is realised that everyone is comparing DJHP not SAE or DIN HP.
I prefer to dyno my cars on something that has the ability to do a coast down test to take out tyre and transmission losses to give a flywheel figure. Operators who also have engine dynos have compared the figures and found them to be within a few %. Also with a coast down you can do the run in different gears and still get the same corrected flywheel numbers.
And you cannot rely on manufacturers numbers always. The japanese for years have undersold their engines to overcome local restrictions. The EVOs used to be rated at 260HP (FW) but actually produce around 280.
As for my 'torque theory' Its not a theory. Its the ideal gas law. A law of physics. Read any book on turbo theory (even maximum boost, which is not that good) and you will see that you cannot make more power than the stock engine power times the pressure ratio.
In your case repeatable is probably better than accurate, as you are trying to prove a gain with tuning. And if everyone is comparing dynojet HP fine, as long as they point this out and it is realised that everyone is comparing DJHP not SAE or DIN HP.
I prefer to dyno my cars on something that has the ability to do a coast down test to take out tyre and transmission losses to give a flywheel figure. Operators who also have engine dynos have compared the figures and found them to be within a few %. Also with a coast down you can do the run in different gears and still get the same corrected flywheel numbers.
And you cannot rely on manufacturers numbers always. The japanese for years have undersold their engines to overcome local restrictions. The EVOs used to be rated at 260HP (FW) but actually produce around 280.
As for my 'torque theory' Its not a theory. Its the ideal gas law. A law of physics. Read any book on turbo theory (even maximum boost, which is not that good) and you will see that you cannot make more power than the stock engine power times the pressure ratio.
06-04-2005, 03:41 PM
#48
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
A dyno is a tool, all numbers that come out off it are irrelavent! as long as the car is TUNED properly the times on the strip will tell all. Yes it is nice to get a figure at the end and we all like them. the best bet is go back to the same dyno and use that again when you change something. This way you will see you true increase or decrease. Some off you may be interested to know that some dyno's on there print outs have numbers on them that you can send off to the dyno manufacture and they will tell you iff the results have been fudged. Just my 2pence worth!
06-04-2005, 04:41 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 162
[quote name='cjr' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:41 PM']A dyno is a tool, all numbers that come out off it are irrelavent! as long as the car is TUNED properly the times on the strip will tell all. Yes it is nice to get a figure at the end and we all like them. the best bet is go back to the same dyno and use that again when you change something. This way you will see you true increase or decrease. Some off you may be interested to know that some dyno's on there print outs have numbers on them that you can send off to the dyno manufacture and they will tell you iff the results have been fudged. Just my 2pence worth!
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Curious that the 'times on the strip will tell' comment keeps coming up. In this case the times on the strip suggest that no more than about 375HP is reaching the wheels...
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Curious that the 'times on the strip will tell' comment keeps coming up. In this case the times on the strip suggest that no more than about 375HP is reaching the wheels...
06-04-2005, 06:15 PM
#50
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='Jun 4 2005, 10:41 PM']Curious that the 'times on the strip will tell' comment keeps coming up. In this case the times on the strip suggest that no more than about 375HP is reaching the wheels...
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would be good to see you going up the strip. come to think off it I have never seen you or your cars. yet you keep on talking
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would be good to see you going up the strip. come to think off it I have never seen you or your cars.