Just finished my ports for my hks t51r fd

hoping for a lot of horspower https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

Those are tiny https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

TOO TINY.... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

So you're an engine builder now?

[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='Apr 29 2005, 06:01 AM']So you're an engine builder now?


[/quote]



I don't really get your point?

I've built my engine which is why i've posted pictures!

Make of that what you will, but know i'm not a specialist engine builder

as in Tim & Carl etc if that's what your implying.



rgds

good job brian..

I have now done 1200 miles on my new motor, off to the dyno in the morning, I have my 105 octane race fuel, water injection, and wanna run 25psi of boost. Fingers crossed I don't go pop as I have drag race competition this Sunday. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683329.gif

[quote name='BNA_ELLIS' date='May 27 2005, 08:17 AM']I have now done 1200 miles on my new motor, off to the dyno in the morning, I have my 105 octane race fuel, water injection, and wanna run 25psi of boost. Fingers crossed I don't go pop as I have drag race competition this Sunday. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683329.gif


[/quote]



Didn't have time to map my car up to 1.7 bar todaydue to problems with my

intercoolerhose/pipe which kept popping off anytime I tried to run more boost than 1.2 bar. I made 478 at 1.2 bar but the dyno sheet I have is the run of 470.

This is on a dyno dynamics dyno. The car feels extremely fast. Now I am off to a drag racing competition on Sunday & Monday hopefully I'll get in the 10's.

I'll post dyno sheet on Monday goto run.

Great job!!!



B

damn i cant goto rotor stock this year was hopin for a shot in a few of the guys pasanger seats aswell u think any1 will hit the 9s ?

good luck at the track and with your future tuning sessions! let us know your results.

[quote name='diabolical1' date='May 30 2005, 07:54 AM']good luck at the track and with your future tuning sessions! let us know your results.


[/quote]





One dyno is rear wheel the other is flywheel.

Racing this weekend was too great. I kept popping that same hose as I did on the dyno.

The mickey thompson are incredible tyres. when I warm them up witha good lengthy burn out and launch at 6500 rpm they are so sticky I bog down?

I only had 3 real runs becuase of my pipe problems quickest was 12.0 @ 123mph witha 2.1 sec 60ft https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683664.gif

sons of bitches..I want that https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

554 at 1.2 bar, that's a pressure ratio of 2.2.



So by implication, you have a 250HP natasp engine under there...



I don't buy that dyno plot. Car should be fast as a scalded cat, but 550? Doesn't seem possible. I would seriously question the accuracy of that dyno, or get a second opinion off another one.



Happy to be proved totally wrong, but the numbers don't quite stack up.

[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='May 30 2005, 10:55 PM']554 at 1.2 bar, that's a pressure ratio of 2.2.



So by implication, you have a 250HP natasp engine under there...



I don't buy that dyno plot. Car should be fast as a scalded cat, but 550? Doesn't seem possible. I would seriously question the accuracy of that dyno, or get a second opinion off another one.



Happy to be proved totally wrong, but the numbers don't quite stack up.


[/quote]



Thanks for your technical input as usual Bill. By the way what took you soooo long?

I guess you we're busy setting up all your scientific equipment and working out figures on your calculator.

I think what i'm trying to say is that I really don't care.

http://static.zoovy.com/merchant/hightemps...S_Pricelist.pdf Scroll down to page 18 and look at there Constant Torque clamps I have them and they look like a very good piece. And I'm planning to push in the 30psi range of boost. Hope this helps you out.

chin up, man. it's all a process, you know? i know time is money, but just start forming your plan for next time. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png i'll cheer for ya' ...



couple of questions ...

are your secondaries set to come online at around 5800 RPM? the reason i ask is because of that little dip on both sheets.



also, what were your AFRs for those runs?

[quote name='diabolical1' date='May 31 2005, 09:16 AM']chin up, man. it's all a process, you know? i know time is money, but just start forming your plan for next time. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png i'll cheer for ya' ...



couple of questions ...

are your secondaries set to come online at around 5800 RPM? the reason i ask is because of that little dip on both sheets.



also, what were your AFRs for those runs?


[/quote]

No my secondaries are not the cause. Problem was I was supposed to be on the dyno approx 10:00am I didn't get on until 4pm so was a bit pushed for time so between 4500 to 6000 rpm my air/fuel ratio is really rich the dip is when air fuel ratio gets to 9.9 to 1 but because of time I didn't adjust it. I will be going back in a few weeks to map to up to 1.7 maybe 1.8 bar and will take care of it then.

Above 6000 rpm air fuel ratio is 10.5 to 1 as I said I was pushed for time as I don't have my own dyno. I only mapped this on race fuel as my water injection was quenching as my jet is too big.

Fine don't care, but by my reckoning AT BEST you have 460-470HP at the flywheel. If you are happy that the dyno you are using is so far out as to be useless, then fine. But you cannot say you currently have a 500+HP car. The physics of it do not stack up.



Some less than professional dyno operators like to set things up to give an 'emperors new clothes' plot. Given you went on the same dyno that managed to get 380HP out of stock twins I would say that there is much of that going on.



Do I care that you don't care: NO. However it needs to be pointed out to others reading this thread that 550HP on 1.2bar on streetports is not a believable figure.

[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='May 31 2005, 12:40 PM']Fine don't care, but by my reckoning AT BEST you have 460-470HP at the flywheel. If you are happy that the dyno you are using is so far out as to be useless, then fine. But you cannot say you currently have a 500+HP car. The physics of it do not stack up.



Some less than professional dyno operators like to set things up to give an 'emperors new clothes' plot. Given you went on the same dyno that managed to get 380HP out of stock twins I would say that there is much of that going on.



Do I care that you don't care: NO. However it needs to be pointed out to others reading this thread that 550HP on 1.2bar on streetports is not a believable figure.


[/quote]



zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

How do you have the hoses clamped on there now?



I have a buddy that drills 2 small holes on either side of the clamp and tightens them in place with self tapping sheet metal screws(through the hose). Or you could have someone put spot welds around the outside of the pipe so the hose grips the pipe better.



BTW good luck

Im with Bill on those figures, seen a few not so true dyno figures round. Try another dyno. Exhaust ports look good, but inlets dont look like they would support more than 450rwhp.

What ecu are you using?

[quote name='Nospig' date='Jun 1 2005, 01:43 AM']Im with Bill on those figures, seen a few not so true dyno figures round. Try another dyno. Exhaust ports look good, but inlets dont look like they would support more than 450rwhp.

What ecu are you using?


[/quote]



Maybe it's pics quality the inlets are as big as a street port can go both pri & sec

ecu is the apexi pro

[quote name='Nospig' date='Jun 1 2005, 02:43 AM']Im with Bill on those figures, seen a few not so true dyno figures round. Try another dyno. Exhaust ports look good, but inlets dont look like they would support more than 450rwhp.

What ecu are you using?


[/quote]



What the hell are you talking about those ports look like they will support no more than 450rwhp. Please I've seen motors making over 500rwhp with smaller intake and exhaust ports than those. It's all about putting together the right parts and it's all about the tuning. You probably can't make 450rwhp on low boost settings but you will definetly make that at higher boost pressures. Hell there are guys out there in excess of 600rwhp with a 13B and a streetport be it that they are pushing 28psi+ boost.

Ari at Rotary Performance made 620 rwhp a few years ago on a stock port Mazda rebuilt engine. He ran 26 psi of boost and a 75 shot of nitrous and still didn't blow it up in 1 season of drag racing. That is impressive but goes to show that you can't judge power potential off of what a port looks like.

[quote name='rotarygod' date='Jun 1 2005, 02:00 PM']Ari at Rotary Performance made 620 rwhp a few years ago on a stock port Mazda rebuilt engine. He ran 26 psi of boost and a 75 shot of nitrous and still didn't blow it up in 1 season of drag racing. That is impressive but goes to show that you can't judge power potential off of what a port looks like.


[/quote]

now i don't know the details of Ari's car, but i will go on record in agreement with the second half of this statement. you can't judge a port's potential based on how it looks.

I'll be back on a dyno in a few weeks to finish off anyway. Hopefully before I go back to the strip which will be 18th June as I want a 10 sec pass.

[quote name='BNA_ELLIS' date='Jun 2 2005, 07:18 AM']I'll be back on a dyno in a few weeks to finish off anyway. Hopefully before I go back to the strip which will be 18th June as I want a 10 sec pass.


[/quote]



Good luck with it Brian,



Paul



P.S. Get that water injection set up properly

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

[quote name='BNA_ELLIS' date='Jun 1 2005, 04:50 AM']Maybe it's pics quality the inlets are as big as a street port can go both pri & sec

ecu is the apexi pro


[/quote]



Hi Brian,

Don't go off on one but................

I have built engines with bigger ports than that.You need to look at the porting a bit more to see there are still areas that can be gained.

Still your 12 second time is getting pretty good,just keep an open mind Brian,no good comes of closing off every thought that is put to you.

Your times and speed up the strip are where it all counts.

I hear that you were not allowed to run any longer on the Dyno cos the "Figures" were getting to close for comfort to the operators car???!!!

Regards

Carl

[quote name='Kaboom!' date='Jun 2 2005, 04:42 AM']Hi Brian,

Don't go off on one but................

I have built engines with bigger ports than that.You need to look at the porting a bit more to see there are still areas that can be gained.

Still your 12 second time is getting pretty good,just keep an open mind Brian,no good comes of closing off every thought that is put to you.

Your times and speed up the strip are where it all counts.

I hear that you were not allowed to run any longer on the Dyno cos the "Figures" were getting to close for comfort to the operators car???!!!

Regards

Carl


[/quote]





Yes I have areas to learn regarding engine porting. I listen to intelligent people who have built and continue to build good strong engines, and I put into practise what I have been taught. So far so good. Read the post properly you see I didn't close off a thought that was put to me. All Bill done is what he always does rubbishes anything anyone else achieves and makes out that his theories mean more anything else.

Yes I know you and him are buddies so go ahead agree with him. His mouth is obviously a better dyno than Geffs DYNO DYNAMICS as he estimates I only have 450fwhp, 450fwhp must be accurate why? because Bill said so.

Come on Carl lets not get down road of my one is bigger than yours that's not the topic here, what have the big ported engine you built done down the strip? as you said times & speed up the strip is where it counts. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif

The laws of physics are on my side. Its a basic rule of thumb calculation to see if the power delivered for a particular boost level makes sense. In your case it doesn't. The most likely cause of this is a dyno that has either not been calibrated properly, has been set high on purpose to give customers a 'good feeling' or is being operated by someone who is not properly qualified.



Whichever it is, the numbers do not stand up to basic scrutiny. Its not my theory. Its the ideal gas law. PV=nRT.

[quote name='BNA_ELLIS' date='Jun 2 2005, 07:25 AM']Yes I have areas to learn regarding engine porting. I listen to intelligent people who have built and continue to build good strong engines, and I put into practise what I have been taught. So far so good. Read the post properly you see I didn't close off a thought that was put to me. All Bill done is what he always does rubbishes anything anyone else achieves and makes out that his theories mean more anything else.

Yes I know you and him are buddies so go ahead agree with him. His mouth is obviously a better dyno than Geffs DYNO DYNAMICS as he estimates I only have 450fwhp, 450fwhp must be accurate why? because Bill said so.

Come on Carl lets not get down road of my one is bigger than yours that's not the topic here, what have the big ported engine you built done down the strip? as you said times & speed up the strip is where it counts. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif


[/quote]



Well Clives car was reasonably quick for a full weight FD at a 12.2 1/4.Those ports were smaller than yours are on the primaries but larger on the secondaries.Clive was running 1.1 bar boost at the time.That was in January of last year.His car is running a full interior and even has the Aircon in working order.Clives car was making 365hp at the hubs on a hub dyno at the time,so some discrepency between your power and his for similar times.I reckon that Clives car had around 410 hp at the fly then.

Don't get me wrong Brian,you are doing a good job which is great to see,and no doubt the jap ported engines you have pulled down have helped,but your 1/4 mile figures don't seem to come up to scratch with your power figures.You are good mates with Geff at ReWorx,just like I am with Bill,but maybe the DD rollers do need checking out?Just looking at it logically.You are the man to ask him since you are his mate.

Don't want to be https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif ,just trying to help,as I did on Monday when you asked me.I want to see quicker and quicker times in the UK,so please take the thoughts on board.

Regards

Carl

Wow, I feel like I'm on the other forum.

[quote name='Zero R' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:37 PM']Wow, I feel like I'm on the other forum.


[/quote]



i agree!



i am reading a whole bunch of nonsense.



i also agree the car should trap higher than 123mph

[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:42 AM']The laws of physics are on my side. Its a basic rule of thumb calculation to see if the power delivered for a particular boost level makes sense. In your case it doesn't. The most likely cause of this is a dyno that has either not been calibrated properly, has been set high on purpose to give customers a 'good feeling' or is being operated by someone who is not properly qualified.



Whichever it is, the numbers do not stand up to basic scrutiny. Its not my theory. Its the ideal gas law. PV=nRT.


[/quote]



A T51 SPL is basically the same as the GT42 102mm, and the GT42 lays down 520-550rwhp based on port work, at 1.2 bar. Does that mean that every dyno that makes 550whp on a T51SPl/GT42 is trash? No... Many people have done it... You cannot prove that EVERY dyno is WRONG... I understand that people can tweak dynoes, but 550whp is absolutely possible.



I tuned a 13B steet ported with a T72 turbo ( smaller than the T51SPl),and the car did 443whp at 14spi spike falling to 11psi. I can email you many runs of 430-440whp. The boost controller was not doing its job ( old HKS EVC 3, showing 5psi with the car not running). Otherwise a T72 at 1 bar will put down 450whp. a T51SPL, which flows 10 more pounds that the T72, at running 3more psi, will be in the 520-550rwhp range.



Also, dyno dynamics is the lowest reading dyno of them all. So 478rwhp is amazing, considering the car is not even tuned yet.



You are talking about physics here, but how many 13Bs with bigger turbos have you PERSONALLY tuned on a DYNO?



Also, if you look at the GT24 102mm compressor map, you can see that at 2.2 the turbo flows about 52lbs. So that is roughly 520rwhp. So with the race gas, extra timing, etc 550rwhp is really possible.





I have to agree about the trap speed, 123mph is too low unless he messed up majorly...

[quote name='Kaboom!' date='Jun 2 2005, 01:25 PM']Well Clives car was reasonably quick for a full weight FD at a 12.2 1/4.Those ports were smaller than yours are on the primaries but larger on the secondaries.Clive was running 1.1 bar boost at the time.That was in January of last year.His car is running a full interior and even has the Aircon in working order.Clives car was making 365hp at the hubs on a hub dyno at the time,so some discrepency between your power and his for similar times.I reckon that Clives car had around 410 hp at the fly then.

Don't get me wrong Brian,you are doing a good job which is great to see,and no doubt the jap ported engines you have pulled down have helped,but your 1/4 mile figures don't seem to come up to scratch with your power figures.You are good mates with Geff at ReWorx,just like I am with Bill,but maybe the DD rollers do need checking out?Just looking at it logically.You are the man to ask him since you are his mate.

Don't want to be https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif ,just trying to help,as I did on Monday when you asked me.I want to see quicker and quicker times in the UK,so please take the thoughts on board.

Regards

Carl


[/quote]



As I said if I don't have 470rwhp it's not an issue. Maybe I should be trapping higher even with bad starts for a car with my claimed power. Unfortunately I don't have nought over here to compare against really apart from my last car which had 424rwhp at 1.1bar which the owner did 11.8 at 120 something on normal street tyres.

As you desire to change the topic of thread so be it. First off you are quite ill informed, more rumours seem to come out of Newbury than in area51.

Clives car is about all you have on your cv and that's not too pretty, what terminals was that again 107?108? and if my memory serves me right the engine blew up on that run. Lets call it a day, as I had a problem with your friend that spends all his life in a lab not with you.

[quote name='BNA_ELLIS' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:32 PM']As I said if I don't have 470rwhp it's not an issue. Maybe I should be trapping higher even with bad starts for a car with my claimed power. Unfortunately I don't have nought over here to compare against really apart from my last car which had 424rwhp at 1.1bar which the owner did 11.8 at 120 something on normal street tyres.

As you desire to change the topic of thread so be it. First off you are quite ill informed, more rumours seem to come out of Newbury than in area51.

Clives car is about all you have on your cv and that's not too pretty, what terminals was that again 107?108? and if my memory serves me right the engine blew up on that run. Lets call it a day, as I had a problem with your friend that spends all his life in a lab not with you.


[/quote]





Rumours?Ask your other mate Tim.They started from YOU to him then from Dorset to everywhere else.

Tell me then if I am wrong!LOL!

Clives engine had a cracked tip that we found only after pulling the engine to port it for more power.

Anyway I have quite alot of race engines to my credit and my customers have won many circuit race's and championships with them,unlike nearly every other tuner apart from Pip in the UK I actually build more than just straight line drag engines.

Also as I said to you in an earlier thread,YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB!This is just to try to help that's all.If the measuring device is not reading reasonably ok then where are you?

Regards

Carl

If by every dyno you mean dynojets, then yes. They are horrendously innacurate.



Let's go back to first principles. A turbo is a torque multiplier. In an isothermal system the boosted torque is simply the NA torque times the pressure ratio. In a real system the adiabatic nature of a turbo means that this is not true, but it gives us an upper boundary for a perfect turbo/intercooler setup.



So at a pressure ratio of 2.2 if the inlet temperature is the same as ambient, you will get 2.2 times the torque that the normally aspirated engine gives you. You cannot get more than this.



You have said that 550whp is possible at 2.2 bar. Lets just assume for the moment that all the tyre/tranmission losses magically disappear and the 550 is real repeatable flywheel HP. Let us also assume that this 550 is at 7500RPM.



550/2.2 is 250HP or 175lbft of torque. Now, even with carefully tuned exhausts and inlets I have not seen any evidence that a street port can get to that sort of torque. Bridge ports yes, but not street ports. 160lbft is nearer the mark, and that's with higher comp rotors.



But being optimistic and taking the 160lbft number for the big street port and tweaked inlet gives 160*7500/5250=228HP at 7500. Times 2.2 and for a perfect turbo/intercooler setup you get 502HP. This is the absolute maximum. You will actually get less.



You cannot magically create power from nowhere. That is what I am trying to say.

A little extend port i did for a friend. Note these are only sV turbo plates.

[quote name='Kaboom!' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:51 PM']Rumours?Ask your other mate Tim.They started from YOU to him then from Dorset to everywhere else.

Tell me then if I am wrong!LOL!

Clives engine had a cracked tip that we found only after pulling the engine to port it for more power.

Anyway I have quite alot of race engines to my credit and my customers have won many circuit race's and championships with them,unlike nearly every other tuner apart from Pip in the UK I actually build more than just straight line drag engines.

Also as I said to you in an earlier thread,YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB!This is just to try to help that's all.If the measuring device is not reading reasonably ok then where are you?

Regards

Carl


[/quote]



Great! Bevis is telling how much power I got and Butthead is telling what I didn't say. My last post on this bitching, but I suggest you get your info correct before you start posting what came or in this case did not come from outta my mouth.