Hey guys, need a little advice here (thanks for all the help so far Dave C.). I just did a fresh rebuild and now have a 007 smoke screen coming out the tail pipe! Here is the story:



I primed the engine... the motor started right up after priming....but had a 4000 rpm idle so I shut it down after 30 seconds... it burned all the assembly lube, excess oil out and then didn't smoke much at all. It took me 4 or 5 starts/stops to figure out the TPS sensor was causing it to idle high...but still barely any run time or smoke. Now after letting it idle for 15 mins or so of chasing gremlins like trying to cure a miss at idle (1200 RPM) and coolant levels are adequate.. the thing started smoking like a champ!! It has me really concerned....it smokes on start up and continues... the higher I rev it the more smoke. The smoke is a greyish color smells a little rich but not much...I suspect oil, too much smoke and not rich enough for it to be fuel. I want to rule out the OMP isn't jammed up squirting lots of oil in....can I just unplug or pull the vacuum line to disable it?



The way I figure it...its either OMP, Turbos or possible Oil rings (yikes) so I want to start with the easiest. I did a compression test, 95 front rotor, 110 rear rotor.



I am really paranoid at this point given the months it took to put together

thanks in advance,



Chris

Waldorf MD

Chris I think you will get better responses in the engine building forum. I'm forwarding the thread there for you. I personally think that your still burning off the lubes. Maybe something else but i think once the idle is set,( should have no problems getting down to 750k) the fans are fixed and you let it run for a good 30 min the smoke will subside. Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? Ther engine was ported and Chris was told that the oil control ring overlapped the port some and that he might be expecting the engine to smoke some. Anyone wanna jump in?

if its still got a main cat it can take a while to burn everything off. i would run it in somemore and see if it gets better

No I believe that he has a mid pipe with a muffler welded into it.

fomr teh cases i have seen its turbo most of the time, unless there is somethign wrogn with oil control rings. portign into the oil seal track doesnt make teh car smoke all that much

Thanks for moving it Dave.



I didn't put the mid-pipe in yet but I agree it could possibly be just the assembly goop burning off but my instinct tells me its something else due to the amount of smoke coming out now after the fact that I saw the assembly goop burn off and then it started smoking some time after that.



I really need to be able to put a few miles on it to see if I can just burn it off but I can't seem to get the fans working...I even applied straight 12v from the battery and ground as it shows in the manual but just got some clicking no spin???? What are the odds that both fans burnt out?



Anyone have an answer on how disable the OMP to verify if it is not related to the smoke issue?



Thanks,



Chris

Disconnect the OMP, Its the large connector near the engine hanger bracket that your not using. I might have a pic. Hold on.

This is the OMP connector.

Also, I just remember I have a spair set of fans. If you want them they are yours.

thanks for the pic, I wasn't sure if simply disconnecting the OMP electically would disable oil delivery...I will give it a try.



I may take you up on the fans just to trouble shoot whats up with my set up (when would be a good time to pick up?). I find it hard to believe both fan motors burnt out at the same time... I was able to verify it wasn't my sensor connection since grounding activated the fan relay...just no action at the fans..arrgh.



Thanks again,



Chris

Well if disconnecting it doesn't do it then nothing will short of removing it entirely. Did k2rd send you the block off for it? Anyway I got to run around today and BBQ at my folks tonight but I will set the fans on the front porch for you. Come by for them whenever you like.

Dave thanks again, I owe you big time!



Arrgh, I just looked at my OMP connection and it was only half-way in!!!! This damn thing could have been running during initial break in without any OMP at all and no premix!!!!!!!!!!!!! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/ohmy.png https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/ohmy.png https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/ohmy.png



I wonder how long it takes to trash a motor without OMP running or am I just being way too paranoid?? Motor has maybe 30 mins total run time.



Chris

you have a power fc? the power fc doesnt care if the metering pump is plugged in or not, be nice if it told you.



it takes hours to kill the motor with no metering pump

Yea Chris, these rotaries are way stronger than you think.



Mike, he is using a purple box.

hmm it should have freaked out? any other codes?

I would suspect that with the connector off, the pump would simply

stay at the last position - it would still pump. It looks like the

electronic pump just uses a stepper to adjust the stroke, and a pot

to sense where the stroke currently is.

Again, thanks for the sanity check! I connected the OMP and saw no difference in the smoke. Guess I need to stop freaking out and take things one step at a time.



I am going to focus on the fans and getting the battery permanently mounted so I can take it out on the road. I will stop by to pick up the fans in a few mins Dave.



Thanks,



Chris

No codes set on the PFS but I see check engine light comes on after initial start up... need to figure out how to pull the codes so I can see what the prob is.



Chris

Years, really. There are some "rotary gurus" near my area who remove the OMP altogether, no premix. It just wears the engine out faster. All the unburned gasoline at the ends of the chamber does provide some lubricity, albeit not as good as oil will do.



Not recommended for running under boost or high RPM for extended periods of time!

Well took it down the road again, and the smoke was just way too much to take it any further... pulled it back in and realized I had quite a bit of smoke coming up into the engine bay from the turbo/exhaust manifold area as well.....looked underneath and there is quite a bit of oil dripping out of the exhaust sides of the turbos....I see it also dripping from the connection between the DP and Cat so alot of oil is being pumped into the exhaust being burnt in the DP/CAT.... now the question is...is it coming from the turbo (bad seal on the exhaust side? or the from the motor? I pulled the IC/Intake tract and its bone dry so I am confident its not leaking turbo oil being sucked into the motor. I am going to pull the plugs again to try and determine if its burning in the engine or not...but looks like either way I will be pulling the turbos off unless I can verify the OMP is pumping it in. Arrrgh.



Chris

It's coming from the turbos. If it was from the engine, the oil would be introduced into the engine when the rotor passed over the intake ports, applying vacuum to the area between the oil seals and the side seals. Then the oil would be mostly burned, converted to smoke if you will by the act of combustion.



Another good test is to pull the spark plugs. If they look like they were dragged face-down through a Chevy oil pan, you're burning the oil. If they look fairly clean with no massive oil sludge, then it's coming from the turbos. (edit: n/m, didn't see you were going to check that, but it's nice to have confirmation that it's a good idea, no?)



Before you blame the magic snails, make sure you have good, clear oil returns, and that the oil returns don't have to go uphill, and that the oil level in the engine is not higher than the return's entry point. Turbos need large, clear oil returns or they can start puking oil past the seals.

Well, I pulled the plugs and they looked real clean, Leading plugs were clean and dry, trailing had some carbon and a bit of wetness on the tops but not much at all...rechecked compression and got 120 in rear and 95 in the front...not really happy with the big difference but I know I had some questionable side seals/springs that I used anyways thinking they looked fine so that might explain the difference.



I pulled the OMP and installed the K2RD block off plate, warmed the car up kept it at a steady 3000 rpm to burn out whatever oil was in there the engine runs smooth at 3k but man it fogged up the neighborhood!!! So ruled out the OMP...will prob leave it off and pre-mix for piece of mind.



That leaves oil rings or turbo... The turbo looked great (only had 20K on it) and was relatively dry inside prior to putting it on......pulling turbo now and will take a look at the exhaust ports to see how oily they are. I hate to say this but I hope it the turbo seals. I have two rebuild kits from turbo city ready to go.



Has anyone ever seen the turbo exhaust oil seal blow before...I thought it was mostly intake sides that go?



I appreciate the comments.



Thanks,



Chris

Chris my money is on the turbo but I'm glad you seem to be making progress in either case. Anyway I am done with mine for the day, very little left to do. Really only left with the rack to mount the coils and the pipe that needs welding. Anyway I'll leave the hood unlatched if you wanna have a peek. Leslie and I are off to BBQ with the folks. The fans are sitting out for you. Good luck.



-Dave

ive seen the exhaust side of the turbos die before

Well I pulled the DP/turbos off and found alot of oil in the DP leading to some oil on the inside of the y-pipe that joins the two exhaust snails as it exits to the downpipe....but no real wetness around the wheels at all where the oil would have to come from???



The exhaust ports on the motor looked real dry but I still wasn't completely convinced it was the turbos so I decide to try and run the motor with no manifolds to confirm any oil being spit out of the motor. I ran the turbo oil pip to the oil return in block and then ran it for 30 seconds at a time unil I got the motor up to full temp (I DONT RECOMMEND THIS TO ANY ONE WITH AN OILY ENGINE BAY).... because those BLUE FLAMES shooting out the exhaust port will light it up! Anyways, happy to report no smoke at all and no oil on the piece of aluminum I put infront of the exhaust ports to shield the body from the exhaust.



So I think I just confirmed I need to rebuild my turbos (damn things are only suppose to have 20k on them)!!!!!! I plan on knocking that out this week and hopefully move on to other things like my fans, miss at idle, small coolant leak etc.



I will post some pics later tonight.



Chris

Chris It's always been told to me by Peter and a few other "pros" that any stock twin with over 10k will blow by alot of oil and 20k is damn near shot. Food for thought. Well i guess you didn't get a chance for the fan issue yet as I got home and they are still here. I will leave them out for you just in case for the next few days.

No, it just leaves turbo. If that much oil was going past the oil control O-rings, the spark plugs would be heavily fouled, probably to the point of misfiring, even after only a few minutes.



But you now know this already...

Dave, thanks for the effort, I meant to pick them up but got too worked up on chasing down the smoke. I will pick them up tomorrow. I am just happy that it looks to be the turbos and not the motor itself. Although I am a little pissed about paying 400 bucks for turbos that need a rebuild https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...O_DIR#>/11.gif



Anyways, I hope to have it together in the next couple of days so I can confirm then try to get some of my money back from that dude.



Chris

Thanks to all for bits of common sense and sanity checks today. Its always nice to hear someone else confirm your suspicions. I was running back and forth between the garage and computer all day long searching through the forums for those that had similar problems.



I will report the progress and post some pics later this week.



Hey, while I have the turbos out and am doing a rebuild has anyone ever gone through the trouble of machining out the turbo pre-control flapper/casting? It seems everyone wires them open anyways when going non-sequential. Are there any measurable gains from removing the round flapper and the webbing associated with it?



Thanks,



Chris

Pulled the turbos apart tonight..... check out the pic of the crack in primary wastegate...hhhhmmmmm, do you think that had anything to do with it?? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/angry.png https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/angry.png Trying to contact the seller of these "ready to run, low mileage turbos" right now!



Chris

WTF is that? It looks like epoxy putty. Is that a repair?

The black shiny area is actually baked on/glazed oil.... the crack actually extends into the housing up into the compressor area! Not very rebuildable...arrgh. Looking for another set as we speak.



Did you finish yours up tonight?

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...80&#entry549874

Yes and no. It's all done but Iforgot to put the check valve back in the map sensorline and my fuel presures are all off and need to be set to get it to start up. But the wrenching is all done. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blush.png

wow thats a lotta oil. cracks pretty normal i wouldnt be too worried about it. hows the manifold flange of the turbos?

The manifold flange is pretty good...hardly any cracks at all.... The turbos actually look real clean. So your saying the crack should not effect performance or the oil control issue?



I am having a hard time with the last nut so I have yet to actually see inside the housing and look at the oil seal on the turbine side. Do think that is crack is even usable? Still new to these things and any cracks look bad to me at this point.



Thanks,



Chris

Yikes, here is what I found under the cracked housing.... the turbine wheel looks to be melted or at least really tore up....lots of burnt oil. Not sure what the heck could have caused that during a simple break in procedure?? Could I be running so lean (i had to kick the TPS real low get the idle down below 2k) that it heated things up that quickly (less than 30 mins total run time on this motor)? The turbos really do look to be low mileage....almost no shaft play at all, real clean inside...but damn that side got tore up.



It looks like I will be pulling a one of my used cartridges out of the original turbos, rebuild it with a turbo city kit and then put it all back together.



On another note, I still can't seem to get the fans to come on (one of the reasons I haven't ran the motor much at all). I checked all the fuses, tried a diff set of fans, grounded the black connected to the ECU and try grounding the mazda miata temp sensor to see if I could get them to kick on... I can here relays clicking but no movement... any way to check the relays or bypass to verify they are the issue?



Thanks,



Chris

hmm we managed to melt a turbine wheel like that, it took 5 laps at buttonwillow, one of the apex seals stuck down and dumped raw fuel into the exhaust

Chris how is it coming along? Shoot me a call.

thats not melted that looks like physical damage, like a seal blew out and hit it. if you bought those used, someone scammed you.



Also, as a side note, if you flood a motor badly, gas will get into your oil thinning it out.



I installed a wolf3d into my turboII and missed a bare spot in one of the ground connections while wiring my fuel injectors, needless to say, a 1680cc injector stuck open flows a lot of fuel. it was pouring out my exhaust manifold.



Unfortunately for me, at the time of this, I also installed a new turbo, and thought the oil seal was shot and i had a shitty turbo. I was pissed. After I came to my senses I realized what happenned, changed the oil, and everything was fine.



Granted, thats definitely not what happenned in your case, but may serve as a decent bit of information for anyone else thats ever in the same situation. I already saved one person in the #rx7 irc channel from sending a good turbo to be rebuilt w/ this info, hopefully itll help someone else too

Did the smoke stop???