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Well,
After Many years of only having stock ports...I decided to give porting a try. I am rebuilding a 94 FD and I hope that the porting I am doing is ok. I am concerned about a couple of things and want some advice. I hope some of you gurus out there will take a look and give some honest feedback. I am attaching some pics in this thread...hoping to see if I did this porting ok... Also...for a streetport....is it necessary to do the primary ports, secondary ports, AND the exhaust all together? Is that the norm? OR just intake with no exhaust porting, OR just secondary ports and not the primary. I only have the single size RB template... I am worried about the oil control ring path....have I gone too far into it? I slipped with the big carbide cutter and was pretty upset. I cleaned it up, but take a look... Also, I think the port is a bit "fat"...and a little too far down...doesn't match the template exactly... The template didn't even line up with the stock port though! Anyone else had that happen with the RB streetport? Weird... Well, before I write a book...take a look and some constructive critisism is ok...just keep in mind that I have NEVER ported anything before this..... [attachment=38144:attachment] [attachment=38145:attachment] [attachment=38146:attachment] [attachment=38147:attachment] [attachment=38148:attachment] |
Some more pictures...of the Front Iron porting...using a RB template....
[attachment=38149:attachment] [attachment=38150:attachment] [attachment=38151:attachment] [attachment=38152:attachment] [attachment=38153:attachment] |
Any of you porting experts see any problems with this porting? I am in the middle of this rebuild of my 94 and need to know so I can continue the building process...
I am worried about the outside of the port being too fat and causing too much port timing...and being early opening...and secondly...the oil control o-ring path....I am into in a bit...and I am wondering if it will smoke or be unreliable? Anyone think this is unusable? I hope not...I have done a ton of searching and reading and purchased the proper tools....but gotta start learning somewhere....I just hope I didn't trash my irons... Any advice or comments would be appreciated.. Thanks, Greg |
Any porting gurus on here today!? Please help!....
I am worried that I removed TOO much material....not sure though...please check out the pics and post some helpful info..or send me an email.... mazdaland@cox.net |
Not an expert, but looks like your out of the seal tracks.
Hard to get a real look at the port in relation to the plate in those pics. You dont really HAVE to port your exhaust, but atleast smooth it into the sleeve a little better. |
Originally Posted by gorockrx' post='819158' date='May 14 2006, 01:17 PM
Any of you porting experts see any problems with this porting? I am in the middle of this rebuild of my 94 and need to know so I can continue the building process... I am worried about the outside of the port being too fat and causing too much port timing...and being early opening...and secondly...the oil control o-ring path....I am into in a bit...and I am wondering if it will smoke or be unreliable? Anyone think this is unusable? I hope not...I have done a ton of searching and reading and purchased the proper tools....but gotta start learning somewhere....I just hope I didn't trash my irons... Any advice or comments would be appreciated.. Thanks, Greg It is the sealing lip of the outer oil scraper that determies where the port must stop. Even then, some of the E production engines are ported to include part of the outer scraper path. It just smokes a bit. So, it is unlikely that the iron is ruined. If you have moved the open line at all, it is likely that the trailing end of the side seal will be unsupported while crossing the port. I radius and polish the closing line to reduce side seal wear. You can check the end plates with a marking pen like a sharpie. Black out an area along the open side. Install the stationary gear. Install the rotor with a corner seal and no spring. Install a side seal with one end bent so it drags along the iron right beside the corner seal. Turn the crank, and the side seal end will scribe a track through the marking pen dye. Do that from both sides of the corner seal and you will have the actual tracks of the side seal ends marked out plain as day. Lynn E. Hanover |
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='819175' date='May 14 2006, 04:28 PM
It is the sealing lip of the outer oil scraper that determies where the port must stop. Even then, some of the E production engines are ported to include part of the outer scraper path. It just smokes a bit. So, it is unlikely that the iron is ruined. If you have moved the open line at all, it is likely that the trailing end of the side seal will be unsupported while crossing the port. I radius and polish the closing line to reduce side seal wear. You can check the end plates with a marking pen like a sharpie. Black out an area along the open side. Install the stationary gear. Install the rotor with a corner seal and no spring. Install a side seal with one end bent so it drags along the iron right beside the corner seal. Turn the crank, and the side seal end will scribe a track through the marking pen dye. Do that from both sides of the corner seal and you will have the actual tracks of the side seal ends marked out plain as day. Lynn E. Hanover Thanks for the reply...I was hoping you would see this thread... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...>/bigthumb.gif Anyway, I understand about the side seal and that is why I attempted the radius...but....I just ended up taking off too much I think....hard to tell from the pictures I know... I am running out of time to get this car running...so I may just sell the irons and get stockers...I am in the middle of trying to decide. These irons have less than 1/1000th of step wear and are in pretty good shape, so I would hate it if they are not useable because of my screw up.... I will try what you suggested, but please tell me if my attempted radius is any good or not...check out the pictures above. IF I need too, I will take a closer shot of it... |
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='819175' date='May 14 2006, 04:28 PM
It is the sealing lip of the outer oil scraper that determies where the port must stop. Even then, some of the E production engines are ported to include part of the outer scraper path. It just smokes a bit. So, it is unlikely that the iron is ruined. If you have moved the open line at all, it is likely that the trailing end of the side seal will be unsupported while crossing the port. I radius and polish the closing line to reduce side seal wear. You can check the end plates with a marking pen like a sharpie. Black out an area along the open side. Install the stationary gear. Install the rotor with a corner seal and no spring. Install a side seal with one end bent so it drags along the iron right beside the corner seal. Turn the crank, and the side seal end will scribe a track through the marking pen dye. Do that from both sides of the corner seal and you will have the actual tracks of the side seal ends marked out plain as day. Lynn E. Hanover Does this closing look ok, or does it need to be extended more in order to do a more shallow radius? I am using a Racing Beat template, but it didn't align with the port correctly and I took more off the outside than what I wanted to. That was the part I was worried about... I just finished it out anyway, and it is pretty close to the template, but I can feel an edge with the template installed on top, so I am extended farther out than the template... I am also father down (Opening earlier) than the template...is that normal? It just doesn't seem to line up well... Also, important! I have an automatic in this 94 (first auto FD) and I was wondering if it would be better to leave the primary ports stock? OR maybe just polish only and take a small amount off toward the top of the port? Radius any good? OR too steep?: [attachment=38154:attachment] and another view: [attachment=38155:attachment] |
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='819175' date='May 14 2006, 04:28 PM
It is the sealing lip of the outer oil scraper that determies where the port must stop. Even then, some of the E production engines are ported to include part of the outer scraper path. It just smokes a bit. So, it is unlikely that the iron is ruined. If you have moved the open line at all, it is likely that the trailing end of the side seal will be unsupported while crossing the port. I radius and polish the closing line to reduce side seal wear. You can check the end plates with a marking pen like a sharpie. Black out an area along the open side. Install the stationary gear. Install the rotor with a corner seal and no spring. Install a side seal with one end bent so it drags along the iron right beside the corner seal. Turn the crank, and the side seal end will scribe a track through the marking pen dye. Do that from both sides of the corner seal and you will have the actual tracks of the side seal ends marked out plain as day. Lynn E. Hanover OK, Here is a picture after trying what you suggested... [attachment=38158:attachment] There is a very small bit of support all the way around.... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png The oil control rings wiped the surface clean though......you can see the path of everything except the corner since I didn't put springs in...but I did put a spring on the side seal to get a good wipe.... Hard to hold on the gear and turn it around without falling out of the gear...when doing that by hand.. What do you think of what you see there? |
Other than the issues listed....how does the porting work look for my first time....?
See anything else to improve? |
Originally Posted by gorockrx' post='819213' date='May 14 2006, 07:04 PM
Other than the issues listed....how does the porting work look for my first time....? See anything else to improve? |
Thanks...I did some more work on it tonight...just finishing touches...I think it will survive long enough to be worth it..
I will try to match the rear plate to this one.... Still unsure what to do with the center plate....the primaries I want to keep small for the automatic tranny situation.... Is that a bad idea? Should I match ALL the intakes the same? Should I do the exhaust too on an auto tranny car with stock turbos? By the way..my avatar is actually the car I am repairing....for what it's worth... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png |
Originally Posted by gorockrx' post='819212' date='May 14 2006, 07:02 PM
OK, Here is a picture after trying what you suggested... [attachment=38158:attachment] There is a very small bit of support all the way around.... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png The oil control rings wiped the surface clean though......you can see the path of everything except the corner since I didn't put springs in...but I did put a spring on the side seal to get a good wipe.... Hard to hold on the gear and turn it around without falling out of the gear...when doing that by hand.. What do you think of what you see there? The ports look fine. The radius if it was as on a drawing might be expressed as "Break all edges .010". Just the absense of sharp corner that might catch a new side seal. If you could run your finger over that edge at 100 MPH it should not hurt. That smooth at the edge. Radius of the edge beyond the .010" is just fine and I do that, but it is to improve flow. The idea of using the side seal spring with the end bent up at a 90 degree angle, is that it will scribe a nice crisp line through the black ink on the iron. Thus showing off the track of the leading and trailing ends of the side seals. No side seal is installed for this idea. Just a corner seal with no pring under it. And a side seal spring. You mount the iron on an engine stand and install a stationary gear and a rotor and a crank. You set the rotor on the iron so that the corner seal is say, 2 inches from the port. Turn thr crank so that the cornaer seal crosses the port from one direction. If the seal is unsupported, the end of the spring will pop out into the port, and will get hung up on the far side. So, you lift the rotor off and replace it 2" beyond the port and turn the crank the other way with the bent up end of the spring reversed in the groove so as to complete the scribed line for that end of the seal. Now repeat the whole thing with the spring in the groove on the oposite side of that corner seal. No side seal is installed during this operation. You end up with two scribe marks. One is the path of the leading end of all of the side seals. The other is the path of the trailing ends of all of the side seals. I think you interest is in full throttle performance. I would leave the primaries stock. It will run just fine. Lynn E. Hanover |
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='819237' date='May 14 2006, 08:30 PM
The ports look fine. The radius if it was as on a drawing might be expressed as "Break all edges .010". Just the absense of sharp corner that might catch a new side seal. If you could run your finger over that edge at 100 MPH it should not hurt. That smooth at the edge. Radius of the edge beyond the .010" is just fine and I do that, but it is to improve flow. The idea of using the side seal spring with the end bent up at a 90 degree angle, is that it will scribe a nice crisp line through the black ink on the iron. Thus showing off the track of the leading and trailing ends of the side seals. No side seal is installed for this idea. Just a corner seal with no pring under it. And a side seal spring. You mount the iron on an engine stand and install a stationary gear and a rotor and a crank. You set the rotor on the iron so that the corner seal is say, 2 inches from the port. Turn thr crank so that the cornaer seal crosses the port from one direction. If the seal is unsupported, the end of the spring will pop out into the port, and will get hung up on the far side. So, you lift the rotor off and replace it 2" beyond the port and turn the crank the other way with the bent up end of the spring reversed in the groove so as to complete the scribed line for that end of the seal. Now repeat the whole thing with the spring in the groove on the oposite side of that corner seal. No side seal is installed during this operation. You end up with two scribe marks. One is the path of the leading end of all of the side seals. The other is the path of the trailing ends of all of the side seals. I think you interest is in full throttle performance. I would leave the primaries stock. It will run just fine. Lynn E. Hanover Thanks a LOT Lynn... As always, you provide excellent information and give helpful advice to others with a good attitude... I really appreciate what you do.... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...>/bigthumb.gif You would think after owning 9 RX7's over the last 15 years that I would have already tackled this...but I did everything to stock specs only for many years....no porting or aftermarket anything.... Anyway....I couldn't perform that check today because I don't have ANY of the bearings installed and I couldn't put the crank in there....so I just did a fast check by hand....probably not as accurate, but very close. I still have to install the Rotor and Stat Gear bearings...finish the porting and checking to see if the seals will be supported ect... Then on to cleaning all the parts again and clearancing the rotors/housings and the e-shaft and bearings...I hope they go in straight.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png ...and then final assembly of the block. What do you use for polishing the e-shaft? and how do you keep everything perfectly round...ect Like the bearing journals in the rotors and the shaft itself? I was thinking of just doing the usual cleaning of the rotor bearing journals and using the red locktite as you recommend and just pressing them in...then clearance everything.... |
Originally Posted by gorockrx' post='819245' date='May 14 2006, 08:48 PM
Thanks a LOT Lynn... As always, you provide excellent information and give helpful advice to others with a good attitude... I really appreciate what you do.... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...>/bigthumb.gif You would think after owning 9 RX7's over the last 15 years that I would have already tackled this...but I did everything to stock specs only for many years....no porting or aftermarket anything.... Anyway....I couldn't perform that check today because I don't have ANY of the bearings installed and I couldn't put the crank in there....so I just did a fast check by hand....probably not as accurate, but very close. I still have to install the Rotor and Stat Gear bearings...finish the porting and checking to see if the seals will be supported ect... Then on to cleaning all the parts again and clearancing the rotors/housings and the e-shaft and bearings...I hope they go in straight.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png ...and then final assembly of the block. What do you use for polishing the e-shaft? and how do you keep everything perfectly round...ect Like the bearing journals in the rotors and the shaft itself? I was thinking of just doing the usual cleaning of the rotor bearing journals and using the red locktite as you recommend and just pressing them in...then clearance everything.... Be sure to grind off the alignment tabs before pressing in the rotor bearings. You only need Locktite if you have honed out the rotors to increase bearing to crank clearance. In fact Locktite and 4 or 6 little screws to keep the bearing located. While it is easier to press in the bearing with Locktite on it, (so long as you keep it moving) it is hell to get it out come replacement time. I chuck up the crank in the lathe and just by hand using ATF and 400 grit Wet or Dry paper (silicone carbide paper) just squeeze the paper onto the crank journals and let it run for a few seconds. It comes out like chrome. There is no chance at all that you could take off anything but dirt and stains doing this. The crank surface is harder than Chinese arithemetic. A very thorough cleaning at the car wash is required after using an abrasive trick like this. The only change I would make to a street engine, is that I would scrape the front of the rear main bearing down to the copper for the first 1/8". I know this could not happen, but should someone steal the car and scream the engine, (I know you would not do this) the crank will flex a bit and the front of the rear main will get a shine to it. Or, it will get a bit of a weld going and spin the bearing. The alignment tab is there so as to LINE up the oil hole. The tab will not keep it from spinning. So even if it just moves a few degrees, the oil hole is shut off and that will take out the engine, as that shuts off oil to the rotor bearing. (a widowed bearing in a grooved stationary gear will keep oiling should this happen) So, if that problem 1/8" is reduced during the build, it can never weld up anything. No other changes beyond stock are required for street use at or below the redline. Lynn E. Hanover |
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='819269' date='May 15 2006, 04:28 AM
Be sure to grind off the alignment tabs before pressing in the rotor bearings. You only need Locktite if you have honed out the rotors to increase bearing to crank clearance. In fact Locktite and 4 or 6 little screws to keep the bearing located. While it is easier to press in the bearing with Locktite on it, (so long as you keep it moving) it is hell to get it out come replacement time. I chuck up the crank in the lathe and just by hand using ATF and 400 grit Wet or Dry paper (silicone carbide paper) just squeeze the paper onto the crank journals and let it run for a few seconds. It comes out like chrome. There is no chance at all that you could take off anything but dirt and stains doing this. The crank surface is harder than Chinese arithemetic. A very thorough cleaning at the car wash is required after using an abrasive trick like this. The only change I would make to a street engine, is that I would scrape the front of the rear main bearing down to the copper for the first 1/8". I know this could not happen, but should someone steal the car and scream the engine, (I know you would not do this) the crank will flex a bit and the front of the rear main will get a shine to it. Or, it will get a bit of a weld going and spin the bearing. The alignment tab is there so as to LINE up the oil hole. The tab will not keep it from spinning. So even if it just moves a few degrees, the oil hole is shut off and that will take out the engine, as that shuts off oil to the rotor bearing. (a widowed bearing in a grooved stationary gear will keep oiling should this happen) So, if that problem 1/8" is reduced during the build, it can never weld up anything. No other changes beyond stock are required for street use at or below the redline. Lynn E. Hanover That was a windowed rear bearing, not a "widowed" bearing. Sorry. Lynn E. Hanover |
Thanks Lynn....trying to get it back together now....I have read most of your tips over the last year or so reading through the forum...just gathering a few extra tips while I am finishing up this engine.
It looks like I may be moving to Huntsville AL very shortly..so I will be needing to get the car back together ASAP! |
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='819269' date='May 15 2006, 04:28 AM
Be sure to grind off the alignment tabs before pressing in the rotor bearings. You only need Locktite if you have honed out the rotors to increase bearing to crank clearance. In fact Locktite and 4 or 6 little screws to keep the bearing located. While it is easier to press in the bearing with Locktite on it, (so long as you keep it moving) it is hell to get it out come replacement time. I chuck up the crank in the lathe and just by hand using ATF and 400 grit Wet or Dry paper (silicone carbide paper) just squeeze the paper onto the crank journals and let it run for a few seconds. It comes out like chrome. There is no chance at all that you could take off anything but dirt and stains doing this. The crank surface is harder than Chinese arithemetic. A very thorough cleaning at the car wash is required after using an abrasive trick like this. The only change I would make to a street engine, is that I would scrape the front of the rear main bearing down to the copper for the first 1/8". I know this could not happen, but should someone steal the car and scream the engine, (I know you would not do this) the crank will flex a bit and the front of the rear main will get a shine to it. Or, it will get a bit of a weld going and spin the bearing. The alignment tab is there so as to LINE up the oil hole. The tab will not keep it from spinning. So even if it just moves a few degrees, the oil hole is shut off and that will take out the engine, as that shuts off oil to the rotor bearing. (a widowed bearing in a grooved stationary gear will keep oiling should this happen) So, if that problem 1/8" is reduced during the build, it can never weld up anything. No other changes beyond stock are required for street use at or below the redline. Lynn E. Hanover Well...more interesting information... I have never heard of the trick of scraping down the front of the rear main bearing before. Sounds logical though.....the automatic FD that this engine is in will most likely never see above 7.5k rpm though.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png SO...what you are saying about the locktite...is that it is not really needed unless honing (sanding) the bore? I was told to use it on all of the bearings by a "rotary" shop, but of course there was no mention of honing the bores out etc... I was thinking of cleaning them out, but I don't see how I can keep it perfectly round when sanding anyway....I don't have the proper tools...I think I will just install the new ones and check the clearances.... I have also not actually had to clearance a bearing before, so what do you use for that without scraping too much material off and getting down into the copper? I would also love to get the e-shaft polished, but I don't have a lathe.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png Sounds like a great way to do it though.. Last....do you think that the oil control ring path is going to be a problem on this porting? Yes, there may be a small bit of smoking at times, but since I am using the full viton o-rings.....will they wear much faster and therefore shorten the life of the engine? I am thinking of saving these housings for a more performance oriented engine...and using stockers for this rebuild....I just have to find the front and rear plates off an auto though...with less than .001 wear etc.... Thanks for all the advice and tips... |
Originally Posted by gorockrx' post='819447' date='May 15 2006, 09:47 PM
Well...more interesting information... I have never heard of the trick of scraping down the front of the rear main bearing before. Sounds logical though.....the automatic FD that this engine is in will most likely never see above 7.5k rpm though.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png SO...what you are saying about the locktite...is that it is not really needed unless honing (sanding) the bore? I was told to use it on all of the bearings by a "rotary" shop, but of course there was no mention of honing the bores out etc... I was thinking of cleaning them out, but I don't see how I can keep it perfectly round when sanding anyway....I don't have the proper tools...I think I will just install the new ones and check the clearances.... I have also not actually had to clearance a bearing before, so what do you use for that without scraping too much material off and getting down into the copper? I would also love to get the e-shaft polished, but I don't have a lathe.. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png Sounds like a great way to do it though.. Last....do you think that the oil control ring path is going to be a problem on this porting? Yes, there may be a small bit of smoking at times, but since I am using the full viton o-rings.....will they wear much faster and therefore shorten the life of the engine? I am thinking of saving these housings for a more performance oriented engine...and using stockers for this rebuild....I just have to find the front and rear plates off an auto though...with less than .001 wear etc.... Thanks for all the advice and tips... I don't think the oil control path will be a problem. You can polish the crank by hand, it just takes a long time. The scraper "O" rings just seal the scrapers to the rotor, they are not exposed to much wear at all, and should last longer than the car. There are two scraper rings, and they both work rather well. Fuel condenses on the walls of the chamber (irons) and the scraper ring runs over that and the oil film, and pumps it into the crankcase. so, you get oil dilution with fuel to a greater extent than a piston engine. Mazda Comp's old book had you grinding the crank smaller over half of the journal. Not a practical answer for most people. Scraping the bearing does the same thing for free. The bearing overlay (the grey stuff) is about .0015" thick. So just sanding it off and running on the copper is one way to get a racing clearance. (for rotor bearings). Look at Paul Yaw's site. WWW.yawpower.com He machines the overlay out on a mill. Old ford truck engines ran on copper bearings, no indium overlay. Just a bit harder on the crank. The rotary crank is surface hardened, and can do well running on copper. All of this is for wide open racing, and will only cost oil pressure on a street engine. Lynn E. Hanover |
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