Endplate Lapping?
01-07-2005, 01:59 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 629
Wow, never heard of those guys! I think I may do a bit of experimentation with their products on a new engine. Thanks for the heads up!
Michel
Michel
Originally Posted by GMON' date='Jan 7 2005, 11:19 AM
I did some calling arround one day.
You can take up to 8 thousandths off total(Cant remember that for sure). Only 2 thousandtsh per plate though.
Everyone said good luck getting nitriding thats as good as factory without spending more than a new plate. Nitriding is also less than 1 thousandth so it will not replace enough material if you go more than 2 thousandths on a plate.
A lapped plate will wear quicker but if you premix you dont notice this as much.
Often the bottom of the wear mark cant be read on a dial guage becuse the point of the guage is too big. When you lapp the plate and take off 2 thousandths you will often end up with marks left that are deeper than the 2 thousandths you took off.<shrug>
Remember that 12A, gslse and 2nd gen+ engines are totally different in their lapping requirements. Water seals are different.
Racing beat Mazdatrix and Pineapple racing all provide lapping. The place that does the work for Pineapple is just down the road from them but they would not tell me who they were, obviously they are getting a deal. RB and Mazdatrix do their work in house. Pisses me off that people cant give others a hook up on places that do this stuff. We found a local place that does grinding and they can lap as well so call arround. All places said they use "Optical Grade" lapping compound in their process but are very tight lipped about it.
The absolute best solution I found to this problem is this site. http://www.jhbperformance.com/
When I called they said they could put up to 20 thousandth on a plate! Its the same coating as used on the 787. I read the paper on that engine (787)and they said they had "minimal" wear after that race which is mind blowing.
The fact that they can do housings as well as plates is kick ***.
GregW
You can take up to 8 thousandths off total(Cant remember that for sure). Only 2 thousandtsh per plate though.
Everyone said good luck getting nitriding thats as good as factory without spending more than a new plate. Nitriding is also less than 1 thousandth so it will not replace enough material if you go more than 2 thousandths on a plate.
A lapped plate will wear quicker but if you premix you dont notice this as much.
Often the bottom of the wear mark cant be read on a dial guage becuse the point of the guage is too big. When you lapp the plate and take off 2 thousandths you will often end up with marks left that are deeper than the 2 thousandths you took off.<shrug>
Remember that 12A, gslse and 2nd gen+ engines are totally different in their lapping requirements. Water seals are different.
Racing beat Mazdatrix and Pineapple racing all provide lapping. The place that does the work for Pineapple is just down the road from them but they would not tell me who they were, obviously they are getting a deal. RB and Mazdatrix do their work in house. Pisses me off that people cant give others a hook up on places that do this stuff.
The absolute best solution I found to this problem is this site. http://www.jhbperformance.com/
When I called they said they could put up to 20 thousandth on a plate! Its the same coating as used on the 787. I read the paper on that engine (787)and they said they had "minimal" wear after that race which is mind blowing.
The fact that they can do housings as well as plates is kick ***.
GregW
01-07-2005, 02:34 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by rx7tt95' date='Jan 7 2005, 02:59 PM
Wow, never heard of those guys! I think I may do a bit of experimentation with their products on a new engine. Thanks for the heads up!
Michel
Michel
They look like a bunch of mech eng grads that used to do formula SAE racing during university. Found this surfing around their site...
01-07-2005, 04:25 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 352
Originally Posted by GMON' date='Jan 7 2005, 11:19 AM
Often the bottom of the wear mark cant be read on a dial guage becuse the point of the guage is too big. When you lapp the plate and take off 2 thousandths you will often end up with marks left that are deeper than the 2 thousandths you took off.<shrug>
GregW
GregW
This is why you use an rms gauge and not a simple dial indicator. That's what I was referring to in my first post.
I did a lot of searching for places that do lapping. I'm located in Louisville, KY. There is one place in town that does it but there table won't accomodate a plate as small as what we have. The closest place I found was Accu-Grind in Dayton, OH. I talked with them on the phone a couple different times and they were very pleasant and eager to help. They do optical grade (FWIW) and told me depending on the quality of the cast iron we could easily acheive an 8rms or better. Remember factory is around 12rms. We agreed that $50/side would be a fair price. But I still have shipping costs or my own transportation costs to get them there and no nitride. For my own motors I'll stick with new or the ground pieces for my local shop with the same finish but no nitride.
01-07-2005, 04:52 PM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 352
For the machinists geeks disregard my use of the term rms. Though it appears to be a valid measurement increment from searching Google to see where I dreamed it up. I went back and looked at my notes and bills and the correct measurement standard is Ra.
Also found a couple interesting sites explaining processes. Here's one. http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/engineer...ce_finish.html
Also found a couple interesting sites explaining processes. Here's one. http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/engineer...ce_finish.html
01-07-2005, 06:31 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
Originally Posted by GMON' date='Jan 7 2005, 11:19 AM
I read the paper on that engine (787)and they said they had "minimal" wear after that race which is mind blowing.
GregW
GregW
uncle koby said the wear on the 787b apex seals was .0004, or barely measureable.
01-07-2005, 06:39 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig' date='Jan 7 2005, 05:52 PM
For the machinists geeks disregard my use of the term rms. Though it appears to be a valid measurement increment from searching Google to see where I dreamed it up. I went back and looked at my notes and bills and the correct measurement standard is Ra.
Also found a couple interesting sites explaining processes. Here's one. http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/engineer...ce_finish.html
Also found a couple interesting sites explaining processes. Here's one. http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/engineer...ce_finish.html
I always thought surface finishes were stated in microinches with deviations shown in terms of the +/- allowable on the grain wave. I'm an electrical engineer, so i'm not that familiar with mechanical stuff as I want to be.
01-07-2005, 06:45 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 352
Originally Posted by banzaitoyota' date='Jan 7 2005, 04:24 PM
01-07-2005, 09:58 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Originally Posted by GTUs' date='Jan 7 2005, 06:51 AM
I had talked to Allan auto tech recently about getting plates laped locally in our area, Barry said," no one does it around here"
where is this place you are refering to?
new irons are too costly, not everyone have access to at-cost new parts from Mazda dealers though.
where is this place you are refering to?
new irons are too costly, not everyone have access to at-cost new parts from Mazda dealers though.
I actually believe the place I found that did lapping closed up a couple years ago. I heard they had just moved locations, but I can't say for sure. I'll try to see if I can find out where they moved to.
I wasn't too impressed with the knowledge of the guys that worked there, and decided not to use them.
