double orings for water seal
11-18-2005, 09:32 AM
#1
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The pre 86 housings and the MFR PPs have grooves for the water seal. I like to use TT plates so I would have to deal with having a groove in both, the plates and the housings. I heard you can just double up the o-rings but it doesn't sit right with me. Anyone has tried this? Ideally I would like to find .125 inch orings, thicker than stock to use but that turned out to be very difficult.
Thanks
CW
Thanks
CW
11-18-2005, 05:32 PM
#3
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The FD side housings would be better for strength, were this to be a turbo application.
Easier to mount in an FD chassis, too.
I have "heard" of people filling in the grooves on one side or the other, for doing things like using FD side housings for strength in 12A applications. Have yet to try it myself so I cannot report on personal experience, but the info is out there.
Easier to mount in an FD chassis, too.
I have "heard" of people filling in the grooves on one side or the other, for doing things like using FD side housings for strength in 12A applications. Have yet to try it myself so I cannot report on personal experience, but the info is out there.
11-18-2005, 11:11 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by j9fd3s' post='779745' date='Nov 18 2005, 05:26 PM
we thought about taking 5mm off of each side of an 86-03 rotor housing and then you have a 12a with fd ports and steels and stuff
I learned the hard way....don't weld or machine your housings. Hard to get them right and stand up to the heat...in any case...question is still out there....can you double up oraings safely?????
11-19-2005, 08:16 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by z8cw' post='779785' date='Nov 18 2005, 09:11 PM
I learned the hard way....don't weld or machine your housings. Hard to get them right and stand up to the heat...in any case...question is still out there....can you double up oraings safely?????
The short answer is I don't know.
However, when I had no money years ago, I would reuse the three piece stock compression rings. The water rings the black outer ring can be reused many times. The high pressure that makes them work tends to extrude them a bit so I trim them at a steep angle and put that joint at the top of the engine, so if a leak develops, I can see it. But since 1980, there has never been a leak.
For the compression rings, they are cut open to allow for the bridgeport anyway so that is no problem. Some builders drill a hole in the bottom of the ring groove and press in a small roll pin to stop the end of the ring from extruding out into the port. There are a bunch of engines out there with bits of "O" ring hanging out into the port.
I had a spool of Teflon insulated 18 gage aircraft wire that I used for the compression ring along with a dab of
100% GE silicone tub and tile caulk. I never had a leak or any kind of problem. Bill Koch has raced for years using a spool of American made 18 gage hookup wire. The regular cheap plastic insulated wire you wire up the trailer with. No problems from him. I usually stock up on gasket sets before the season, and use the stock parts, but if none is on hand it dosn't stop me for a second.
If you obey the rules for "O" ring applications, there is just no reason why one "O" ring will not work fine.
Cut up some scrap iron and a rotor housing to provide a pair of sides for your grooves and drop in a piece of the proposed ring to see that you nearly fill the groove but with a very small percentage of the groove unfilled. Otherwise the ring will hydraulic lock in the groove and some will be forced out and make a leak.
Clamp the pieces together with a "C" clamp and inspect closely.
Any applications book will tell you exactly what to do.
Most Packing houses have, or can get spools of ring material in every imagineable size, metric or english, and any material. Normally special lengths are just stuck together with a drop of super glue.
The Navy used to buy vulcanizing kits to glue the ends of big "O" rings together. The kit was over $2,000 dollars. Now they glue them with super glue. This is on Subs to converve storage space. No rocket science here.
Just cut it at an angle and put a drop of silicone on the joint and put the joint in the center of the intake side.
It wouldn't stop me for a second.
Lynn E. Hanover
11-19-2005, 10:01 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='779839' date='Nov 19 2005, 07:16 AM
The short answer is I don't know.
However, when I had no money years ago, I would reuse the three piece stock compression rings. The water rings the black outer ring can be reused many times. The high pressure that makes them work tends to extrude them a bit so I trim them at a steep angle and put that joint at the top of the engine, so if a leak develops, I can see it. But since 1980, there has never been a leak.
For the compression rings, they are cut open to allow for the bridgeport anyway so that is no problem. Some builders drill a hole in the bottom of the ring groove and press in a small roll pin to stop the end of the ring from extruding out into the port. There are a bunch of engines out there with bits of "O" ring hanging out into the port.
I had a spool of Teflon insulated 18 gage aircraft wire that I used for the compression ring along with a dab of
100% GE silicone tub and tile caulk. I never had a leak or any kind of problem. Bill Koch has raced for years using a spool of American made 18 gage hookup wire. The regular cheap plastic insulated wire you wire up the trailer with. No problems from him. I usually stock up on gasket sets before the season, and use the stock parts, but if none is on hand it dosn't stop me for a second.
If you obey the rules for "O" ring applications, there is just no reason why one "O" ring will not work fine.
Cut up some scrap iron and a rotor housing to provide a pair of sides for your grooves and drop in a piece of the proposed ring to see that you nearly fill the groove but with a very small percentage of the groove unfilled. Otherwise the ring will hydraulic lock in the groove and some will be forced out and make a leak.
Clamp the pieces together with a "C" clamp and inspect closely.
Any applications book will tell you exactly what to do.
Most Packing houses have, or can get spools of ring material in every imagineable size, metric or english, and any material. Normally special lengths are just stuck together with a drop of super glue.
The Navy used to buy vulcanizing kits to glue the ends of big "O" rings together. The kit was over $2,000 dollars. Now they glue them with super glue. This is on Subs to converve storage space. No rocket science here.
Just cut it at an angle and put a drop of silicone on the joint and put the joint in the center of the intake side.
It wouldn't stop me for a second.
Lynn E. Hanover
Lynn,
as always, thanks a bunch. SO what you are suggesting is to get an oring on a spool that would fit in terms of thickness and than just cut it to lenght and glue it.
CW
11-19-2005, 01:10 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by z8cw' post='779850' date='Nov 19 2005, 08:01 AM
Lynn,
as always, thanks a bunch. SO what you are suggesting is to get an oring on a spool that would fit in terms of thickness and than just cut it to lenght and glue it.
CW
Yes,
a length of bulk material or an in stock "O" ring that is bigger than required and cut it down.
Lynn E. Hanover
11-19-2005, 01:56 PM
#9
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Posts: 524
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='779898' date='Nov 19 2005, 11:10 AM
Yes,
a length of bulk material or an in stock "O" ring that is bigger than required and cut it down.
Lynn E. Hanover
Are you suggesting using one O-ring that would fit into both seal grooves? It would have to be oblong in cross section to work, and assumes that the groove in the rotor housing coincides with the groove in the side housing. I don't think this is the case given that the factory seals are slightly different for each application, although I have never bothered to verify.
11-19-2005, 04:16 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by heretic' post='779917' date='Nov 19 2005, 12:56 PM
Are you suggesting using one O-ring that would fit into both seal grooves? It would have to be oblong in cross section to work, and assumes that the groove in the rotor housing coincides with the groove in the side housing. I don't think this is the case given that the factory seals are slightly different for each application, although I have never bothered to verify.
Not sure how to check if the grooves line up perfectly but they seemed to.
As for the shape, the depth of the grooves is .06 and .054 inches, the width varies betwen .11 to.14. The OEM oring measures .084 height to .088 width. So total OEM compression room is (taking average) .125*.057 = .0071 for .0074 of oring area. That is about 4.24% of compression. Now I have twice the height so .0142 of area where I would need an oring area of .0148. That would give me a square oring of .122, a little to wide for some of the groove. I haven't made the calculation for a round ring but that might work better.