Cryo Treating Rotary?
03-11-2004, 09:29 AM
#21
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 11
Cheers!,
Teflon coatings are in use right now on all sorts of surfaces in piston motor such as con rod and main bearing surfaces, piston skirts, wrist pin bores, valve stem surfaces. In all racing venues, nascar, short track, sprint car, drag racing, etc....
You can buy bearings from bearing manufactures with teflon coatings already applied to them.
High friction areas benefit from it, coating the top of a piston with teflon is not what I was talking about and would be a useless venture.
I build motorcycle race engines for a living and use these coating frequently and their benefits if applied properly are worth using.
Teflon coatings are in use right now on all sorts of surfaces in piston motor such as con rod and main bearing surfaces, piston skirts, wrist pin bores, valve stem surfaces. In all racing venues, nascar, short track, sprint car, drag racing, etc....
You can buy bearings from bearing manufactures with teflon coatings already applied to them.
High friction areas benefit from it, coating the top of a piston with teflon is not what I was talking about and would be a useless venture.
I build motorcycle race engines for a living and use these coating frequently and their benefits if applied properly are worth using.
03-11-2004, 10:09 AM
#22
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 14
Cryogenic treating has been in use in industrial circles for some time now. Mainly used on saw blades, metal cutting inserts, end mills etc. The treated parts wear much longer than un-treated parts. The process has also been used on brake rotors for increased wear life. This process would probably work very well on the wear parts of a rotary - side plates, rotors, rotor housings, apex seals, oil seals, and e-shaft. Side seals would benefit but may not be economical due to the relatively low price of the side seals.
03-11-2004, 11:05 AM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by thekid' date='Mar 11 2004, 11:09 AM
Cryogenic treating has been in use in industrial circles for some time now. Mainly used on saw blades, metal cutting inserts, end mills etc. The treated parts wear much longer than un-treated parts. The process has also been used on brake rotors for increased wear life. This process would probably work very well on the wear parts of a rotary - side plates, rotors, rotor housings, apex seals, oil seals, and e-shaft. Side seals would benefit but may not be economical due to the relatively low price of the side seals.
FoxPerformance, Do u have any knowledge of single cylinder engines? Like a Suzuki DRZ400? I need to get more Horsepower from it, I have added a thumper big bore kit so that it is now at 470cc, and also rediclous cams from hotcams. The engine has to pass through a either:
Gasoline fueled cars - 20.0 mm (0.7874 inch)
E-85Fueled cars – 19.0 mm (0.7480 inch)
restrictors with the throttle body before the the restriction.
THe HP figure are not imporving, but the torque is rediclous with the bolt on goodies.
Should've went with a CBR600...
03-11-2004, 11:26 AM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
what happens to power without the restrictor? maybe the cams are too big for the air flow the restrictor permits? maybe you need a venturi to speed up the intake? hmm too bad you cant really get a single cylinder to scavenge, or can you? just some ideas
03-11-2004, 11:35 AM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,108
actually teh new cams and bolt on goodies are not giving much of an increase in hp without the restrictor. Though i've only tested the engine using teh factory carb... the tec3 is being wired up as i type this.
my idea is trying to increase the intake runner length. Calculations have showed that if i flare the restriction back to stock size at 4degree the effect of the restrictor is minized. THe biggest problem with a huge single cylinder, is that during the intake stroke it sucks ALOT of air from the intake runners, so much that if hte intake runner is too short it can't refill fast enough for the next cycle.
But having an intake that is too damn big causes **** for throttle response. You close the throttle plates and the engine has to use up all the air in the intake before it decels, so i can't merely make a giant intake cone.
my idea is trying to increase the intake runner length. Calculations have showed that if i flare the restriction back to stock size at 4degree the effect of the restrictor is minized. THe biggest problem with a huge single cylinder, is that during the intake stroke it sucks ALOT of air from the intake runners, so much that if hte intake runner is too short it can't refill fast enough for the next cycle.
But having an intake that is too damn big causes **** for throttle response. You close the throttle plates and the engine has to use up all the air in the intake before it decels, so i can't merely make a giant intake cone.
03-11-2004, 12:15 PM
#28
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 11
I have run into this problem on some supermotard engines i have built, specifically the crf 450, you put in a big piston, and the torque goes crazy but top end power is a little more at best.
I am out of my home state right now, but I can post some dyno graphs of the before and after showing exactly what's happening to the power it's pretty impressive, and the torque curve shows that the head won't flow any more.
It has been my conclusion that when it comes to racers, there are two types, ones that need help getting off a corner and ones that don't. the big piston motors are for the guys that have slower corner speeds.
The best I can reccomend is if you have someone that can do head work, get the biggest valves you can in the head, and experiment with the intake tract as you are already on the right path. I have a source for getting custom sized valves and valve seats. if you get that far into it, I don't know what size valves the DR will take. I would try and talk with Yoshimura, they would know lots more than I would.
I don't specialize in these types of engines so my experience with "what works" and what doesn't in singles is pretty limited.
I am out of my home state right now, but I can post some dyno graphs of the before and after showing exactly what's happening to the power it's pretty impressive, and the torque curve shows that the head won't flow any more.
It has been my conclusion that when it comes to racers, there are two types, ones that need help getting off a corner and ones that don't. the big piston motors are for the guys that have slower corner speeds.
The best I can reccomend is if you have someone that can do head work, get the biggest valves you can in the head, and experiment with the intake tract as you are already on the right path. I have a source for getting custom sized valves and valve seats. if you get that far into it, I don't know what size valves the DR will take. I would try and talk with Yoshimura, they would know lots more than I would.
I don't specialize in these types of engines so my experience with "what works" and what doesn't in singles is pretty limited.
03-11-2004, 05:14 PM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,108
Foxperformance,
Actually this is more of a university project... the engine goes into this:
I think inorder to match the 100+ horspowers from some universities with CBR600 with a turbo, we need to get a turbo as well.
THe power to weight ratio of using a single is less then the potential for a 4 cylinder.
however the point of the project/competition (formula SAE) is to be different. So the idea with the single cylinder was because the race track are small autox courses so top end power isn't as important as handling. But the engine runs out of steam at the small straightaways when the CBRs just take off, but when it gets to the corners our car corners equally or better.
Actually this is more of a university project... the engine goes into this:
I think inorder to match the 100+ horspowers from some universities with CBR600 with a turbo, we need to get a turbo as well.
THe power to weight ratio of using a single is less then the potential for a 4 cylinder.
however the point of the project/competition (formula SAE) is to be different. So the idea with the single cylinder was because the race track are small autox courses so top end power isn't as important as handling. But the engine runs out of steam at the small straightaways when the CBRs just take off, but when it gets to the corners our car corners equally or better.
03-11-2004, 06:13 PM
#30
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 11
ooooof!, your trying to get 100 hp out of a single drz 400?.....for use in a car....
you will achieve this HP # with the turbo, but trust me it will be short lived, and will not last, the crank, I should say the rod will not take this abuse.
the crf rods barely take a half a season of punishment with the 500cc piston, and this is being used in a lightweight dirt bike used on a road course(supermotard racing) by real riders, not sunday strollers.
do a search on a swedish bike called a HIGHLAND these use very small displacement v twin engines which may be a better route to take, or possibly a better engine to use would be a suzuki sv650 motor.
you will achieve this HP # with the turbo, but trust me it will be short lived, and will not last, the crank, I should say the rod will not take this abuse.
the crf rods barely take a half a season of punishment with the 500cc piston, and this is being used in a lightweight dirt bike used on a road course(supermotard racing) by real riders, not sunday strollers.
do a search on a swedish bike called a HIGHLAND these use very small displacement v twin engines which may be a better route to take, or possibly a better engine to use would be a suzuki sv650 motor.