http://cfiracing.com/videos/Pics/cracked.JPG



What do you think about changing the lubrication path

to instead flow thru the bottom of the housing to the oil filter and bypass the flow from the top down pin area near the oil filter neck?

ummm isn't the problem just in S4 plates. S5+ don't have that problem

yeah it didnt break from the oil going thru it, the leak is a symptom

Check this out.



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/ind...howtopic=35844



Oil may have caused this gear crack, but it didn't cause your S4 plate to crack. Get an S5 plate. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

...

Yes you can by pass the upper oil passage. Use steal braided hose from front plate to rear plate. Seen it done to reuse a cracked end plate. Take your plate and have it welded and get them to strengthen the hole area around the rear dowel pin area. You can make your S4 end plate stronger then a S5 end plate this way. Will try to find a pic of this and better info on how to. Once you strengthen this area your next weakest link ( apex seals, front end plate ) will break unless you tune better.

chuck

I have an aluminum block bolted on instead of the oil filter adapter. That block provides a location for an oil temp probe, oil pressure fitting, an oil in from an external pump fitting and an oil out for a dash 10 run up the the front iron where I oil directly into the lateral gallery to the front main bearing. So you could run without the dowel gallery if you want.



It seems to me that the dowel gallery is the front end of the oil run and will still leak unless you plug and "O" ring one of the dowels and plug the run up to the dowel gallery. You still have to feed the rear main and you are stuck with oil pressure at the crack site.



I have no idea how extensive the crack is, but I would grind out a 1/4" channel along the crack to just below the dowel "O" ring seat. Then warm up the casting and braze over the crack area. Including the "O" ring boss and a bit below.



Spot face the "O" ring seat and clean up the dowel hole. It should work just fine.



Stop doing what ever it was that made the thing crack.





Lynn E. Hanover

detonation https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/ohmy.png

Hey, I was thinking about oiling the bearings from the front plate on my 20B because there is no room for a filter pedestal or anything at the rear plate. I have since figured out a way to run an oil line back there, but do you think it's necessary? Could I simply run the main oil return line to the front plate (filtered of course)?

well I opened the other half of the motor just now

and there was a broken apex seal in the front rotor that stayed in its groove thank god

no damage..................

This would also aid in cooling to the front rotor/stationary gear and the turbo since the oil doesn't have to flow through the housings.

Any pictures of this setup?



And when should one consider this setup?



And on a side note, usually don't the front stationary gears/front rotor bearings/teeth mess up before their rear counter parts?

Pfft! You call that a crack? Just this week I had someone bring me their engine... endplate was cracked completely in half, with the crack running parrallel to the spark plugs, and about halfway between the coolant seal groove and the stationary gear; basically the entire combustion chamber split wide open, and several tension bolts snapped. I was able to take the iron off in two pieces. The entire rear half of the engine is toast. I don't even want to think about the combustion pressures that will split an endplate....



But, with every downfall comes a new beginning. We will be trying a new port, and using some stonger irons.

How much boost are you running? What A:F are you running? How much HP are you running? What timing are you running? Every time I ask a good tuner about S4 plates and cracks they tell me to tune it properly and there will be no need till you get well over 500hp. Were you running the Microtech when this cracked?



GregW

I heard this same thing from some Puerto Rican amigos. They sited something about the heighth of the oil and it also being in the housings pulling in some heat vs. using a line outside (oil temperature). I was thinking about removing that plug from the front oil gallery going to the stationary gear and running a pair of oil lines from the RB oil pressure/temp adaptor to there and to the turbocharger.



The cracking of the rear is caused either by extreme combustion pressures leading to housing deflection (doubtful) or from pressure generated by severe knock (more likely). Main reasons Mr Hanover has already explained (although I blame it on pump gas and lack of trigger accuracy if the leading or trailing timing is set too aggressively). https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png



B

I will be happy to take pics of the whole mess. It will take a day or so to get it together.



This is a must for extended periods of operation above 9,000 RPM. The thinking is that the upper gallery is through the dowel tubes and they are threaded thus making for a poor oiling path for the front main.



The rear main is about 7 inches from high pressure oil, while the front is maybe three times as far away. I did run above 9,000 for years without this mod, but I was not making much power, and was not stressing the bearings to any great extent. Actually never lost one, and that with a stock oil pump.



This change came to me on a pro built engine, and it is an obvious good idea. It is easy to do if the engine is apart and if it just saves your butt just one time, it is worth the effort. We have an external three section Peterson pump, and with racing bearings and 90 PSI hot, we are processing a bunch of oil.



The picture is the Peterson pump, mounted low on the drivers side of the engine. The two lines are scavenge from the front cover fittings.



About the gear meshing first??? I have no idea what it is you are after there. If you can rephrase that I will try.



Lynn E. Hanover

It wasn't my car, but the engine was a 4 port bridgeport running a carb and distributor, on dual stage nitrous. Retard was controlled by MSD units.

So you're saying it would be a good idea on a 20B due to its greater length?

after i read this thread an looking at an oil flow diagram i saw that recognized that plug and eariler had wondered what it was for. did mazda ever use that plug for an extra oil outlet at anytime, why do they even have it there if they didn't?



on the other topic, so the real problem with the oil flow to the front bearing isn't necessarily the heat but the pressure correct? so in theory would an upgraded oil pump and non-threaded dowel pins remedy this or just put more pressure where it's not necessarily needed? why do they thread those dowel pins anyway? easier removal? last point, let's add some hard numbers to these setups so we know what kind of modifications should be considered at what power levels and rpms. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

that plug is there because they have to drill that passage and theres reall no other way to do it.



as to the rest of it, there is a difference between lynn's 9000rpm roadrace motor vs say a drag motor. lynns motor will see full load and full rpm for hours at a time, where a drag or street motor sees full load and rpm for seconds, theres a large difference there

damm i don't have the housing here to take pic

but What I was told is the side of front housing by the spark plugs has a indentation

where it would be drilled and tapped for a oil line....



never seen it done in person

but was told it works good

oh and yes the oil supply on the top of the front side housing would not be used instead a oil pedestal like the one fc3s.org sell would be used to supply oil to the turbo

how could you possibly detonate with the amazing microtech????





i'm sorry i couldn't hold back.........lol

witha wrogn timign map https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/ind...howtopic=28508



might answer some other questions...

easy



ready? cold night+non working air sensor+shifted early in 4rth gear which created much load in the engine=boost spike=Ping=cracked plate/apex seal due to use of Pump Gas instead of Race gas



and yes my A/F's should of been in the low 11's for pump gas

but was running 11.8 A/F-11.9 A/F which seemed very nice on race gas and made alot of power but was border line on pump gas

That front plate oil bypass mod has been done by racers if the rules allows them to do it. One problem is this totally bypasses the front OPR, and you get raw pressure coming off the oil pump. The good thing is that you don't have to deal with the stupid o-ring in the front cover!







-Ted

Ok, Now I am lost, First they said:





and now they say:



What gives? Was the above pic of a cracked plate running efi or carb?



GregW

no no 2 diffrent people the bridge port post wasn one in comparison to mine

Ted, I uh https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683561.gif



I was talking about flowing the oil back into the engine at the front plate instead of the rear one. I understand that it would sort-of bypass the rear pressure reg, but the oil passages are interconnected, so it shouldn't really even be a problem.



Well, either way, I still have the option of using the rear plate since I've found a way that ought to work quite well. Should I just forget about the front plate?

Oh, I was just replying in general.



Reading all of that other stuff made my head hurt. :(





-Ted

Well, rather than tempt fate, I'll just flow the oil into the rear plate and avoid any headaches. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR

This is the plate that replaces the oil filter adapter and provides a dash 12 oil pressure in from the pump and filters. A dash 4 to the oil pressure gage. Unseen on the other side is a sender for oil temp. and the hydraulic 45 fitting is the dash 10 line to the front lateral gallery.

Here is a front plate modified to oil the front main bearing from a hose from the oil filter stand.



The steel tube shows the path from a fitting on the drivers side to the main bearing. A nice straight line.



The brass plug is drilled out and the hole tapped for a dash 10 by boss fitting. An aluminum washer is the only seal.

This picture shows the path of oil from the rear iron. This takes out three 90 degree turns with razor sharp corners. The dowel run is left open so the supply plumbing cross section to the front bearing is more than doubled.



Lynn E. Hanover

I installed a fitting on my vertical gallery. I'm not sure if I should use it to feed the front bearing.



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/upl...1066587788.jpg



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/upl...1067942992.jpg

That kinda looks like the Pineapple "oil mod" that they've been doing for years.

that AFR will not break an engine. unless you had previously damaged it by running too much timing or a shoddy engine that was ready to go

yeah i agree its too much timing. ive heard mine ping when its richer than that

Here is a picture of the front iron with a steel tube run through the lateral Gallery.



This gives you two paths for oil to the front main bearing. Not only are there threads in the dowel run from the rear gallery, there are a number of razor sharp 90 degree turns that reduce oil pressure.



Lynn E. Hanover



lehanover@aol.com

Hey Lynn, I had that exact same idea just a few months ago! What gives? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png



B