Big Extended Port?
03-12-2007, 04:15 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 265
Out of interest, Which of these two Closing edges is Considered the most reliable/ Yielding best Power gains?
They are both based on the Judge ITO Template, i have read lots recently and from what i can tell as long as there is a On ramp for the Side seal its a Bit personal Preference? (everyone has there own spin on it)
I'm guessing as its a Judge ITO Template and the More rounded one is from ITO's Porting thread that's going to be the way? But is the sharper Port basically the same without the last stage (the Rounding off)? or is there an advantage?
They are both based on the Judge ITO Template, i have read lots recently and from what i can tell as long as there is a On ramp for the Side seal its a Bit personal Preference? (everyone has there own spin on it)
I'm guessing as its a Judge ITO Template and the More rounded one is from ITO's Porting thread that's going to be the way? But is the sharper Port basically the same without the last stage (the Rounding off)? or is there an advantage?
03-19-2007, 08:49 AM
#2
Fabricator
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Ohio (Hebron) Zephyrhills Fla.
Posts: 1,322
Originally Posted by Grizzly' post='863220' date='Mar 12 2007, 02:15 PM
Out of interest, Which of these two Closing edges is Considered the most reliable/ Yielding best Power gains?
They are both based on the Judge ITO Template, i have read lots recently and from what i can tell as long as there is a On ramp for the Side seal its a Bit personal Preference? (everyone has there own spin on it)
I'm guessing as its a Judge ITO Template and the More rounded one is from ITO's Porting thread that's going to be the way? But is the sharper Port basically the same without the last stage (the Rounding off)? or is there an advantage?
I am not famillier with the template you speak of, so I cannot tell if the leading end of the side seal is supported at the closing line. In any case the radiused line is preferred to the sharp edged line.
Mother nature hates sharp corners. So flow would be better that for the sharp one.
Second, if in fact the leading end of the seal is not supported crossing the port, then the seal will last much longer with the radiused closing line.
In any port change where the opening line is moved very far at all, the trailing end of the seal will be unsupported and drop into the port a bit while crossing, and here again will last longer if the closing line is radiused.
I establish a line for closing degrees, and then raise the outer end of that line a bit, and lower the inner end of that line. This is so the trailing end of the side seal will run onto the radius from the inner end to the outer end like a scissors closing from the hinge line to the tips.
I have never lost a side seal in operation. In most cases I can reuse most of the side seals on the next rebuild. Anything with .002" or less is fine for use.
In this picture, the closing line is one I do not like. Note the trailing end of the seal runs up onto the outer edge of the port and there it rounds the corner off of the seal. The leading end of the seal is supported all
the way across the port. I later modified this "Store bought" port to perform as above.
Note the see through rotor on the left, used to scribe the seal tracks.
Lynn E. Hanover
03-19-2007, 08:55 AM
#3
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central Ohio (Hebron) Zephyrhills Fla.
Posts: 1,322
Originally Posted by Lynn E. Hanover' post='864214' date='Mar 19 2007, 06:49 AM
I am not famillier with the template you speak of, so I cannot tell if the leading end of the side seal is supported at the closing line. In any case the radiused line is preferred to the sharp edged line.
Mother nature hates sharp corners. So flow would be better that for the sharp one.
Second, if in fact the leading end of the seal is not supported crossing the port, then the seal will last much longer with the radiused closing line.
In any port change where the opening line is moved very far at all, the trailing end of the seal will be unsupported and drop into the port a bit while crossing, and here again will last longer if the closing line is radiused.
I establish a line for closing degrees, and then raise the outer end of that line a bit, and lower the inner end of that line. This is so the trailing end of the side seal will run onto the radius from the inner end to the outer end like a scissors closing from the hinge line to the tips.
I have never lost a side seal in operation. In most cases I can reuse most of the side seals on the next rebuild. Anything with .002" or less is fine for use.
In this picture, the closing line is one I do not like. Note the trailing end of the seal runs up onto the outer edge of the port and there it rounds the corner off of the seal. The leading end of the seal is supported all
the way across the port. I later modified this "Store bought" port to perform as above.
Note the see through rotor on the left, used to scribe the seal tracks.
Lynn E. Hanover
03-19-2007, 06:13 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Denmark
Posts: 214
Probably the pictures are too large, resize or wankelkim at gmail.com
I have been thinking about that scissor closing edge lately, one could have an early opening port without the scissor effect, if you'd just take a look at the Renesis ports, Right???
Honestly, I havent looked all that much into the Renesis porting but those port shapes looks interesting.
I have been thinking about that scissor closing edge lately, one could have an early opening port without the scissor effect, if you'd just take a look at the Renesis ports, Right???
Honestly, I havent looked all that much into the Renesis porting but those port shapes looks interesting.
03-19-2007, 06:54 PM
#6
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 79
I don't recommend attempting ITO's extended port shown in the left picture. As Lynn said, the round closing edge is favorable but ITO's port does violate the path of the side seal. The leading edge of the sideseal hits the closing edge of the port. That's why some builders sacrifice compression by rounding the leading edge of the side seal. This issue was covered with pictures in the thread from which you pulled ITO's picture.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...20seal&st=0
**What ITO didn't mention until the end of that thread (3 years later from the time he started that thread) was...
"with the WILD streetport I highly suggest the hurley engineering duplex sideseals are used. I've had 2 engines loose oem sideseals, with the WILDstreetport. Even after carefull attention being payed to the closing edge of the port." -Ito
By then I had gone through 4 rebuilds. The first rebuild I made the closing edge smoother. The 2nd I rounded the leading edge of the side seals on the secondary port side of the rotor. The 3rd rebuild I rounded them even more. The fourth rebuild is still pending because I parked the car in disgust after the seals broke minutes after i started the car. I thought I was doing something wrong all that time and then I saw ITO basically say his WILD port was a failure.
I doubt it will even work with harder seals. I wouldn't try it. There will still be wear on the closing edge of the port and on the leading edge of the side seals. It doesn't matter how hard the seals are. Harder seals will only help the engine live a little longer. The motor will still fail eventually.
Here is link to a thread I started about one of my rebuilds...before I realized it would never work.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...c=49903&hl=
My expensive lesson and the bottom line...Don't take your ports past the path of the side seal!
Best of luck,
Ryan
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...20seal&st=0
**What ITO didn't mention until the end of that thread (3 years later from the time he started that thread) was...
"with the WILD streetport I highly suggest the hurley engineering duplex sideseals are used. I've had 2 engines loose oem sideseals, with the WILDstreetport. Even after carefull attention being payed to the closing edge of the port." -Ito
By then I had gone through 4 rebuilds. The first rebuild I made the closing edge smoother. The 2nd I rounded the leading edge of the side seals on the secondary port side of the rotor. The 3rd rebuild I rounded them even more. The fourth rebuild is still pending because I parked the car in disgust after the seals broke minutes after i started the car. I thought I was doing something wrong all that time and then I saw ITO basically say his WILD port was a failure.
I doubt it will even work with harder seals. I wouldn't try it. There will still be wear on the closing edge of the port and on the leading edge of the side seals. It doesn't matter how hard the seals are. Harder seals will only help the engine live a little longer. The motor will still fail eventually.
Here is link to a thread I started about one of my rebuilds...before I realized it would never work.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...c=49903&hl=
My expensive lesson and the bottom line...Don't take your ports past the path of the side seal!
Best of luck,
Ryan
03-20-2007, 11:51 AM
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4
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I don't recommend attempting ITO's extended port shown in the left picture. As Lynn said, the round closing edge is favorable but ITO's port does violate the path of the side seal. The leading edge of the sideseal hits the closing edge of the port. That's why some builders sacrifice compression by rounding the leading edge of the side seal. This issue was covered with pictures in the thread from which you pulled ITO's picture.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...20seal&st=0
**What ITO didn't mention until the end of that thread (3 years later from the time he started that thread) was...
"with the WILD streetport I highly suggest the hurley engineering duplex sideseals are used. I've had 2 engines loose oem sideseals, with the WILDstreetport. Even after carefull attention being payed to the closing edge of the port." -Ito
By then I had gone through 4 rebuilds. The first rebuild I made the closing edge smoother. The 2nd I rounded the leading edge of the side seals on the secondary port side of the rotor. The 3rd rebuild I rounded them even more. The fourth rebuild is still pending because I parked the car in disgust after the seals broke minutes after i started the car. I thought I was doing something wrong all that time and then I saw ITO basically say his WILD port was a failure.
I doubt it will even work with harder seals. I wouldn't try it. There will still be wear on the closing edge of the port and on the leading edge of the side seals. It doesn't matter how hard the seals are. Harder seals will only help the engine live a little longer. The motor will still fail eventually.
Here is link to a thread I started about one of my rebuilds...before I realized it would never work.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...c=49903&hl=
My expensive lesson and the bottom line...Don't take your ports past the path of the side seal!
Best of luck,
Ryan
Originally Posted by pvillknight7' post='864310' date='Mar 19 2007, 03:54 PM
I don't recommend attempting ITO's extended port shown in the left picture. As Lynn said, the round closing edge is favorable but ITO's port does violate the path of the side seal. The leading edge of the sideseal hits the closing edge of the port. That's why some builders sacrifice compression by rounding the leading edge of the side seal. This issue was covered with pictures in the thread from which you pulled ITO's picture.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...20seal&st=0
**What ITO didn't mention until the end of that thread (3 years later from the time he started that thread) was...
"with the WILD streetport I highly suggest the hurley engineering duplex sideseals are used. I've had 2 engines loose oem sideseals, with the WILDstreetport. Even after carefull attention being payed to the closing edge of the port." -Ito
By then I had gone through 4 rebuilds. The first rebuild I made the closing edge smoother. The 2nd I rounded the leading edge of the side seals on the secondary port side of the rotor. The 3rd rebuild I rounded them even more. The fourth rebuild is still pending because I parked the car in disgust after the seals broke minutes after i started the car. I thought I was doing something wrong all that time and then I saw ITO basically say his WILD port was a failure.
I doubt it will even work with harder seals. I wouldn't try it. There will still be wear on the closing edge of the port and on the leading edge of the side seals. It doesn't matter how hard the seals are. Harder seals will only help the engine live a little longer. The motor will still fail eventually.
Here is link to a thread I started about one of my rebuilds...before I realized it would never work.
https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...c=49903&hl=
My expensive lesson and the bottom line...Don't take your ports past the path of the side seal!
Best of luck,
Ryan
03-20-2007, 02:40 PM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 265
Ok, I get the Problem with the side seal catching the Closing edge of the port but why is there not loads of people saying don't use the ITO Templates?
I have been messing about with an Old plate in the Garage and noticed if you don't square the the closing-Opening corner off quite tight the Side seal tends to drop out (or at least drop into the Port sligtly) and is then pushed accross out of the Rotor groove by the opening edge as it crosses the Side seals path.
I have read the ITO thread on this many times and i think the key is more to do with getting the Corner of the Port correct and the Opening edge parallel so it doesn't cross the side seals path in that corner.
But as Alot of people have pointed out if the Side seal is Suported there is no problem in the first place?
I have been messing about with an Old plate in the Garage and noticed if you don't square the the closing-Opening corner off quite tight the Side seal tends to drop out (or at least drop into the Port sligtly) and is then pushed accross out of the Rotor groove by the opening edge as it crosses the Side seals path.
I have read the ITO thread on this many times and i think the key is more to do with getting the Corner of the Port correct and the Opening edge parallel so it doesn't cross the side seals path in that corner.
But as Alot of people have pointed out if the Side seal is Suported there is no problem in the first place?
03-20-2007, 02:50 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 265
I've just been looking at your Port and TBH this is a Good example of what i mean, Note the Side seal has been pushed accross by the Opening edge and the Seal has got jamed out by the pinching effect of the Opening edge v's the rotors side seal groove then the Seal thats protruding is been Pushed into the Closing edge at the point where the the Closing edge of the rad starts.
As i say i noticed this when i was messing about before that corner needs to be very sharp so the Opening edge doesn't cross the Side seal path.
As i say i noticed this when i was messing about before that corner needs to be very sharp so the Opening edge doesn't cross the Side seal path.
03-20-2007, 06:26 PM
#10
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 79
I'm NOT saying ITO's templates are bad! The SP templates he sells are different from his "WILD" secondary ports he was showing off in his porting thread.
That picture is from when I opened the motor after my 1st rebuild. I did square off the corner the screw driver is pointing to. I even made it into a longer ramp to guide the seal back into it's groove.
That picture is from when I opened the motor after my 1st rebuild. I did square off the corner the screw driver is pointing to. I even made it into a longer ramp to guide the seal back into it's groove.