Alcohol: the missing link
07-06-2006, 09:23 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 117
first, allow me to congratulate NO PISTONS and Brian Cain ( AKA BDC) for the excellent idea of the new forum section...
given the fact that the rotary runs an easy 300 more degrees of EGT compared to a piston engine and given that most of us turbo the XXXX out of our motors it is not surprising that we get pretty good at rebuilds and the install/jerk-it process. if you build them and treat them right they do work fine and those that never learn end up w LS1s.
the bigtime heat and boost we run simply require Auxilliary Injection (AI).
simply put.... add alcohol, jack up the timing at least 3-4 degrees, add another 8 psi of boost and hang on.
unlike racegas, which delivers some, not all, of alcohols benefits alcohol is used only under boost. the rest of the time you are cruising around w (relatively) cheap pump gas. i run a 4 gallon fuel cell in my Fd and it lasts thru numerous tanks of gas. others get by fine w a gallon.
so you can make racegas power when you put your foot down and go to the grocery store for the other kind of alcohol.
it gets better. not only do you get the octane necessary to run 23-24 psi on the street but you get major league cooling. you may know rotaries that run on 100% alcohol and run in the 8s and 7s often don't even run an intercooler. you don't want to put your hand on the intake runners after a trip down the quarter or you may find your hand freezing to the runner. you do not get this cooling w racegas.
the forum is entitled Auxilliary Injection as it is meant to cover all types of injectives... such as water, nitrous and propane.
as usual almost everything you need to know is on the net. i have around 100 bookmarks. the best single source of info as to theory tuning whom to deal with and hardware, IMO, is the Turbobuick.com site. the subsection is entitled Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech. it has over 65 PAGES of THREADS. since the Buicks came turboed there's been alot of research and drag radials incinerated over the years. it is interesting as you see AI's story unfold in realtime dating back a number of years. it is all alcohol and started out w water.
lots of racers over there.... the guy i ended up dealing w Julio Don, Tampa Fl runs a transam firebird w the buick V6... stock block, pump gas w alcohol, 231 cu inches, 2 valve pushrod motor at 3860 pounds... 134 mph. that's on pump gas. without alcohol he can only run 17 psi. add another 10 psi w alcohol along w a bunch of timing advance.
a properly designed alcohol kit will have a re-engineered pump so as to be compatible w alcohol, the lines will b braided stainless w brass hydraulic fittings. the controller will be an adj progressive type.
tuning is VERY interesting... we generally tune w AFR. (along w some egt and knock). since alcohol has a very different AFR and we are combining it w pump most of the tuning is done w knock.
i expect alcohol (methanol, $1.99 gallon in Milwaukee) will garner a huge eventual following as more people realize what a perfect fit it is to the turbo rotary.
howard coleman
u
given the fact that the rotary runs an easy 300 more degrees of EGT compared to a piston engine and given that most of us turbo the XXXX out of our motors it is not surprising that we get pretty good at rebuilds and the install/jerk-it process. if you build them and treat them right they do work fine and those that never learn end up w LS1s.
the bigtime heat and boost we run simply require Auxilliary Injection (AI).
simply put.... add alcohol, jack up the timing at least 3-4 degrees, add another 8 psi of boost and hang on.
unlike racegas, which delivers some, not all, of alcohols benefits alcohol is used only under boost. the rest of the time you are cruising around w (relatively) cheap pump gas. i run a 4 gallon fuel cell in my Fd and it lasts thru numerous tanks of gas. others get by fine w a gallon.
so you can make racegas power when you put your foot down and go to the grocery store for the other kind of alcohol.
it gets better. not only do you get the octane necessary to run 23-24 psi on the street but you get major league cooling. you may know rotaries that run on 100% alcohol and run in the 8s and 7s often don't even run an intercooler. you don't want to put your hand on the intake runners after a trip down the quarter or you may find your hand freezing to the runner. you do not get this cooling w racegas.
the forum is entitled Auxilliary Injection as it is meant to cover all types of injectives... such as water, nitrous and propane.
as usual almost everything you need to know is on the net. i have around 100 bookmarks. the best single source of info as to theory tuning whom to deal with and hardware, IMO, is the Turbobuick.com site. the subsection is entitled Alcohol, Nitrous and Propane Tech. it has over 65 PAGES of THREADS. since the Buicks came turboed there's been alot of research and drag radials incinerated over the years. it is interesting as you see AI's story unfold in realtime dating back a number of years. it is all alcohol and started out w water.
lots of racers over there.... the guy i ended up dealing w Julio Don, Tampa Fl runs a transam firebird w the buick V6... stock block, pump gas w alcohol, 231 cu inches, 2 valve pushrod motor at 3860 pounds... 134 mph. that's on pump gas. without alcohol he can only run 17 psi. add another 10 psi w alcohol along w a bunch of timing advance.
a properly designed alcohol kit will have a re-engineered pump so as to be compatible w alcohol, the lines will b braided stainless w brass hydraulic fittings. the controller will be an adj progressive type.
tuning is VERY interesting... we generally tune w AFR. (along w some egt and knock). since alcohol has a very different AFR and we are combining it w pump most of the tuning is done w knock.
i expect alcohol (methanol, $1.99 gallon in Milwaukee) will garner a huge eventual following as more people realize what a perfect fit it is to the turbo rotary.
howard coleman
u
07-06-2006, 11:25 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
ive happened across some of the details of the mazda japan/RB bonneville FC engines. mazda japan developed the engine starting in 81 but only ran it i think twice, dnf'ing. then they went to RB who lost an engine in setting the 236mph record.
those engines were a bp twin turbo setup
, making 530hp@15psi, with water to air intercooling down to 45degrees F, etc etc.
we now have efi, where they had a mechanical
we now have ceramic apex seals, who knows what they had? 2100f egts....
but still i dont see it as a combo that can even be made to be reliable, except with water, or maybe alcohol
interesting stuff guys!
those engines were a bp twin turbo setup
we now have efi, where they had a mechanical
we now have ceramic apex seals, who knows what they had? 2100f egts....
but still i dont see it as a combo that can even be made to be reliable, except with water, or maybe alcohol
interesting stuff guys!
07-07-2006, 11:22 AM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,114
I am happy to see this sub-forum made. I feel this is the next movement that is going to happen for our little rotary engines...especially since forced induction is needed to make any "real" power. IMO, before this, you needed to do one of two things to create power.
1. Run high boost on race gas on a "smaller" turbo and risk blowing
2. Run a huge turbo and suffer with lag
Now that water/meth injection is here there is no need for either downside.
Howard, excellent job on laying out the basics. I would hate to see a few individuals ruin a great thing from a little misinformation and or incorrect setups.
I am all about building the base of Nopistons up with writeups and tech articles. I say that the first person that installs a Water meth kit should do a writeup. I have a coolingmist 2 stage kit. I would be happy to do this but it is still quite some time before I will actually install it.
Z
1. Run high boost on race gas on a "smaller" turbo and risk blowing
2. Run a huge turbo and suffer with lag
Now that water/meth injection is here there is no need for either downside.
Howard, excellent job on laying out the basics. I would hate to see a few individuals ruin a great thing from a little misinformation and or incorrect setups.
I am all about building the base of Nopistons up with writeups and tech articles. I say that the first person that installs a Water meth kit should do a writeup. I have a coolingmist 2 stage kit. I would be happy to do this but it is still quite some time before I will actually install it.
Z
07-07-2006, 04:08 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Grand Prairie, TX
Posts: 917
I'm still working on my AlkyControl kit installation. I've been doing some preliminary testing now that it's leak proof but I believe the fuel cell is mounted too high with respect to the output nozzle. So, Razor is sending me a check valve to help with some dribbling that I think is occurring. Here's a link to the installation pictures:
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...C/AlkyControl/
Comments always welcome.
B
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...C/AlkyControl/
Comments always welcome.
B
07-07-2006, 05:02 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 10,906
Originally Posted by z-beater' post='827257' date='Jul 7 2006, 11:22 AM
I would hate to see a few individuals ruin a great thing from a little misinformation and or incorrect setups.
Z
Get used to it, this is the internet.
Alcohol injection works great, its no mystery. Its been used on aircraft for almost a hundred years. If its not a common practice its going to be cast down, esp by the internet gurus. Its going to be knocked for a long time to come, last time I was on the dyno with an Rx-7, the operator was casting it down also..
07-07-2006, 05:17 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,114
Originally Posted by 1Revvin7' post='827310' date='Jul 7 2006, 03:02 PM
Get used to it, this is the internet.
Alcohol injection works great, its no mystery. Its been used on aircraft for almost a hundred years. If its not a common practice its going to be cast down, esp by the internet gurus. Its going to be knocked for a long time to come, last time I was on the dyno with an Rx-7, the operator was casting it down also..
Whoa, calm down. Yes to YOU alcohol may be no mystery. There are tons of people that just slap a system together without research. More so there are tons of people that are still in the turbo world that do not even know what water injection is. This is my attempt to help those that do not properly search or are looking to make that next step. And I am well aware of the history.
07-07-2006, 07:34 PM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 117
this falls under my "still learning" category and is another reason to seriously discount the water-alcohol mix program..
i was talking to Julio Don today and mentioned that somewhere on one of the rotary boards someone had posted a picture of their throttle body. as i recall they were running a 50-50 mix of water and alcohol.
their comment was based on observation of the 3 butterflies.... that more of the AI was going to the rear rotor. (you could see that the rear half of the three throttle plates was cleaner than the front half.)
Julio's comment was that the problem related to mixing alcohol and water. water does not "flash" like alcohol. if you inject water w alcohol you get small droplets in the intake runner just after the nozzles. these droplets capture the alcohol. in addition to not atomizing like alcohol, water weighs around 8.5 pounds per gallon and alcohol about 6.4 pounds. as a result the mixture tends to fall out of suspension as it makes the elbow turn and thusly favors the rear rotor.
if you run straight alcohol it "flashes" vaporizes before the elbow turn and is in better suspension for a more even distribution.
BTW, i think i have an excellent location for my 2 nozzles: they are in the silicone coupler immediately infront of the elbow and just behind my relocated air temp sensor.
finally, i am well aware that there are numerous people out there running AI and i do hope that we all find this section a great place to exchange ideas so that everyone wins.
our overworked engines are counting on us.
stay tuned.
howard coleman
i was talking to Julio Don today and mentioned that somewhere on one of the rotary boards someone had posted a picture of their throttle body. as i recall they were running a 50-50 mix of water and alcohol.
their comment was based on observation of the 3 butterflies.... that more of the AI was going to the rear rotor. (you could see that the rear half of the three throttle plates was cleaner than the front half.)
Julio's comment was that the problem related to mixing alcohol and water. water does not "flash" like alcohol. if you inject water w alcohol you get small droplets in the intake runner just after the nozzles. these droplets capture the alcohol. in addition to not atomizing like alcohol, water weighs around 8.5 pounds per gallon and alcohol about 6.4 pounds. as a result the mixture tends to fall out of suspension as it makes the elbow turn and thusly favors the rear rotor.
if you run straight alcohol it "flashes" vaporizes before the elbow turn and is in better suspension for a more even distribution.
BTW, i think i have an excellent location for my 2 nozzles: they are in the silicone coupler immediately infront of the elbow and just behind my relocated air temp sensor.
finally, i am well aware that there are numerous people out there running AI and i do hope that we all find this section a great place to exchange ideas so that everyone wins.
our overworked engines are counting on us.
stay tuned.
howard coleman