sparky

i am interested in externally oil feeding my 13b re engine, has anyone got pics of how to do this? im fairly certain i need to cut into the center and rear plates but some pics to confirm this would be great!!





cheers

1Revvin7

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...=51440&st=0

setzep

wait.. do you mean with a external pump or just loop hoses?

sparky

no no... you can use the factory pump but send the oil from out of the cooler into a custom manifold and directly into the side plates and into the ecentric shaft etc etc as the oil feed runs through the top of the housings and side plates through the top dowell.. u by pass this and it creates an equal oil distribution like you need on the 20b engines

Lynn E. Hanover

The pictures show most of the deal, but be sure to take the front iron to the machine shop along with the hydraulic pump fittings so that they may properly fit the holes. They are to machine the plugs out of the front iron, and install the proper hole size and thread it with straight threads and install a finished (flat) surface at the top of the hole, or a tapered chamfer depending one the fitting you use. In one case just the upper gallery into the front stationary gear, if you want to keep the hose exit to the cooler in the front cover and maintain the oil supply to the OMP.



Or you can block the outlet at the front cover, and machine both plugs out and install two fittings so

(the lower one) is the pressure out from the pump and the upper is pressure in to the front stationary gear.



That still leaves the "O" ring connection at the front cover junction, and that "O" ring failing at high pressure has killed thousands of engines. The front cover is very flexible and high oil pressure just pushes the cover half of that junction off of the hole and the "O" ring gets pushed out on one side.



You can go one step further and when you plug the front cover pressure out hole, drill and tap that plug for

1/8" pipe threads and install a nylon gage line fitting (as used to install a street oil pressure gage)

and add a similar source hole in the filter adaptor to supply oil to the OMP. You can also make it plenty sexy by using 1/4" stainless pressure hose if you prefer. Now you make up a steel slug that is .030 thicker than a stock "O" ring and install that instead of the "O" ring. It cannot blow out. It makes much more pressure on the junction. You can run the stock front cover gasket again, and the OMP gets its oil supply as God intended.



You could also just drill a .020" hole in the slug and forget the extra hose.



The fittings that you install in the front iron must have straight threads, not tapered pipe threads. I think dash 10 is as big as you can go and have any material left around the outside of the hole. A pipe thread will crack out the side of the hole and ruin the iron. The sealing can be done with a copper or aluminum gasket against the face of the hole, they even make soft washers with "O" rings molded into the washer, or another type uses a slight chamfer at the top of the hole and a washer under the hex presureizes an "O" ring in that chamfer to do the sealing. Both systems work well, and available at the hose shop near you.



Do not block the dowel gallery, the object is to more than double the gallery cross section.





Lynn E. Hanover

Lynn E. Hanover

I should have added that the fitting end that goes into the front iron is called a boss junction, so the fitting can be a hose to boss as in AN or aircraft fittings or tube to boss as in an SAE fitting.



You can mix and match AN and SAE hoses and fittings with success, but the AN have a 37 1/2 degree mating angle while the SAE are 45 degrees. Note that the SAE hydraulic hose end fittings have smaller IDs for each size than do the AN hoses. Even the pretty hoses at the hot rod shop may use different IDs on their fittings between brands. A better bet is to stick to all one brand for hose and fittings. All Aeroquip or all Russel ect.



If you have access to a small lathe or even a die grinder, match up the upstream fitting openings with the hose end ID. Even among the same brand there will be inconsistant IDs between hoses and fittings.

Radius all downstream fitting openings. No square or sharp openings ever.



Lynn E. Hanover

j200pruf

OK Just to clairify, So when you use the lower front cover passage to feed the oil cooler, and block off the front cover passage(The one with that crappy o-ring right?) what do you do about the front oil pressure bypass valve? And also with the set-up you would have to find a different way to feed the MOP(like the rotary aviation adaptor) or pre mix and ditch the MOP?

Lynn E. Hanover

First, you can drill a .020" hole in the slug you replace the "O" ring with. That will supply plenty of oil to the omp.



Or, the much better option would be the adaptor to go under the OMP so you can run a real, Synthetic oil in the sump, and a real, clean burning 2 cycle oil in the OMP.



Synthetic oil does not burn at all well, and makes a mess of the rotors and apex seal grooves. The 2 cycle oil is designed to burn ash free, so there is no gum left to screw up the apex seal grooves.



The oil pressure relief valve in the front cover is adjustd to open at 140 pounds, so as to protect the oil cooler from the imbecil in North Dakota who jumps into his FD and screams the engine right from idle in 20 degree below zero weather. Actually it wouldn't start anyway, but you get the idea.



The rear relief valve is adequate for 99% of drivers, and available up to 115 pounds, or, if you want to add shims to an early one to go higher. In dry sumped engines even that one is not used. The relief valve is in the pump.



Pre mixing is for weekend cars, and is a pain in the tail even for that use. One ounce per gallon or Redline racing 2 cycle oil if you must. Also note that the amount of oil the OMP inserts is microscopic. If you are doing a dyno run or doing a bit of drag racing, or a track day, it is a real good idea to premix at least 1/2 ounce per gallon just for that tankfull. This is my opinion, and I will not be buying you a new converter if you fail smog.



Lynn E. Hanover

j200pruf

Awsome reply as usuall, thanks lynn. I really like the adaptor to just inject 2 cycle. Just out of curiosity what do you have to do differnt with the oiling system with a dry sump?

Lynn E. Hanover

Well that will be a few key strokes.



The dry sump does two things for you ina race car. Well a road race or similar car. A drag car may not need it.



Anyway there is no oil pan at all. Just a flat plate on the engine bottom. This allows for a much lower engine mounting that is important for a rotary because the crank is in the center of the engine instead of the bottom as in piston engines.



The other feature is that cool foam free oil at high pressure is always available for the engine no matter what the operating condition or situation. Except when the car is inverted, and that takes your mind off of the oiling system anyway.



The bassis of the system (most systems) is an externally mounted multi section pump that has very large displacement pump elements. About the displacement of two Mazda pumps per revolution.



The pressure pump is at the end opposite the pulley. It has a built in pressure relief valve. The pressure pump draws oil from a reserve tank somewhere in the car. The pressurized oil is fed to a set of filters, the 500 pound burst K&Ns would be good, then to a cooler or two then into the engine.



Where the stock filter adaptor now sits there will be an aluminum block that contains the dash 12 "oil in"

fitting, an oil temp fitting, an oil pressure line to a mechanical gage, (dash 4 stainless please) and an additional dash 10 "oil pressure out" fitting to feed the front stationary gear. There are pictures of all of that here on the site somewhere.



This aluminum block has only one opening into the engine. To the inner hole on the adaptor stand. That hole goes to the rear main and the dowel gallery to the front iron. The outer hole is not used. The banjo fitting hole may be blocked to keep bugs out. The stock pressure regulator is not used.



The forward two pump sections draw spent oil from the front and rear of the engine. This can be done in many ways but most builders make up some bulkhead fittings to epoxy into holes through the front cover. Dash 10 usually. They go to the suction side of the scavenge pumps. The pressure side of the two pumps will be joined inside the pump, so that only one scavenge out line can be used. The scavenged oil and air mixture is then sent to the storage (reserve tank) through a high flow filter and perhaps another cooler.

( I have two in the scavenge line). The oil enters the tank at an angle so as to spin the oil against the side of the tank and that helps remove the foam. Then it all starts over again.



http://www.moroso.com/default.as



I now use a Moroso three stage pump with the larger (they call it a Ford style) pressure section, and find it very reliable. The round Petersons are OK. The square looking Petersons are junk. I can move you into one of those cheap if you want to loose a few engines over it.





Lynn E. Hanover