Whats The Best Seven For Drifting?
01-28-2004, 10:29 AM
#42
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Richmond, KY
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by inanimate_object' date='Jan 24 2004, 05:58 AM
Not trying to be arguementative here, but could you please explain why the car needs to be lighter and better handling? The way I see it and from my little experience a light car with good handling and lots of grip tend to be more twitchy and has less progressive loss of traction.
There are two cars I've driven that spring to mind. Firstly a Lotus 7 type car, which once you finally do provoke the thing into oversteer(not easy), it doesn't want to stay there and quickly finds grip again. The other car was an old live axle Jaguar which was scary the way the tail kept trying to pass us out, but on the other hand it was quite easy to catch it - and lots of fun
Mark
There are two cars I've driven that spring to mind. Firstly a Lotus 7 type car, which once you finally do provoke the thing into oversteer(not easy), it doesn't want to stay there and quickly finds grip again. The other car was an old live axle Jaguar which was scary the way the tail kept trying to pass us out, but on the other hand it was quite easy to catch it - and lots of fun
Mark
My take on this is:
Lighter cars are more responsive, easier to control and have better balance. Heavier cars are more difficult to correct once you get momentum built up and then try to correct your line. The last thing you want in a slide is unpredictable steering/suspension, otherwise you won't be able to control the car effectively.
This doesn't mean I'm saying that heavy cars can't drift, I'm just saying that this is why lighter cars are more desirable, among other reasons of course.
What do you mean by progressive loss of traction? Any car will "progressively loose traction" if driven incorrectly.(or correctly, depending...)
Keep in mind, though, drifting isn't easy, especially at first, and what you're describing sounds like what any beginner would go through while driving different cars.
01-28-2004, 02:16 PM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by 4RotorRocket' date='Jan 24 2004, 05:43 PM
drifting with muscle cars
Originally Posted by jayroc' date='Jan 28 2004, 05:29 PM
My take on this is:
Lighter cars are more responsive, easier to control and have better balance. Heavier cars are more difficult to correct once you get momentum built up and then try to correct your line. The last thing you want in a slide is unpredictable steering/suspension, otherwise you won't be able to control the car effectively.
This doesn't mean I'm saying that heavy cars can't drift, I'm just saying that this is why lighter cars are more desirable, among other reasons of course.
What do you mean by progressive loss of traction? Any car will "progressively loose traction" if driven incorrectly.(or correctly, depending...)
Keep in mind, though, drifting isn't easy, especially at first, and what you're describing sounds like what any beginner would go through while driving different cars.
Lighter cars are more responsive, easier to control and have better balance. Heavier cars are more difficult to correct once you get momentum built up and then try to correct your line. The last thing you want in a slide is unpredictable steering/suspension, otherwise you won't be able to control the car effectively.
This doesn't mean I'm saying that heavy cars can't drift, I'm just saying that this is why lighter cars are more desirable, among other reasons of course.
What do you mean by progressive loss of traction? Any car will "progressively loose traction" if driven incorrectly.(or correctly, depending...)
Keep in mind, though, drifting isn't easy, especially at first, and what you're describing sounds like what any beginner would go through while driving different cars.
Ok put it this way: what would happen if you tried drifting in two similar cars, one fitted with slicks(ie. making the car much more responsive and better handling), the other with bald street tyres? I would put money on the car with the bald tyres being infinitely better for drifting because the car with slicks would grip for ages and then lose traction at a point which would be impossible to recover, whereas the bald tyres would lose traction much sooner at a point which is within limits of control - does this make sense?
I know this is an extreme comparison, but the principle should still applies between light/heavy cars because lighter cars have inherently more grip (ie. like the slicks). Another thing which gives more grip is well designed independent suspension which new cars usually have and muscle cars sometimes don't. Incidentally this is also a good description IMO of progressive oversteer - the car with bald tyres would have progressive oversteer, the car with slicks would have snappy unprogressive oversteer.
By the way I am in no way saying that everyone should sell their cars and go drifting in muscle cars - quite the contrary, but it just seems a little weird to me that there aren't more people drifting in "domestics" - or are there?
Mark
01-29-2004, 11:12 AM
#44
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Richmond, KY
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by inanimate_object' date='Jan 28 2004, 12:16 PM
Never seen Dukes of Hazzard then?
Ok put it this way: what would happen if you tried drifting in two similar cars, one fitted with slicks(ie. making the car much more responsive and better handling), the other with bald street tyres? I would put money on the car with the bald tyres being infinitely better for drifting because the car with slicks would grip for ages and then lose traction at a point which would be impossible to recover, whereas the bald tyres would lose traction much sooner at a point which is within limits of control - does this make sense?
I know this is an extreme comparison, but the principle should still applies between light/heavy cars because lighter cars have inherently more grip (ie. like the slicks). Another thing which gives more grip is well designed independent suspension which new cars usually have and muscle cars sometimes don't. Incidentally this is also a good description IMO of progressive oversteer - the car with bald tyres would have progressive oversteer, the car with slicks would have snappy unprogressive oversteer.
By the way I am in no way saying that everyone should sell their cars and go drifting in muscle cars - quite the contrary, but it just seems a little weird to me that there aren't more people drifting in "domestics" - or are there?
Mark
Ok put it this way: what would happen if you tried drifting in two similar cars, one fitted with slicks(ie. making the car much more responsive and better handling), the other with bald street tyres? I would put money on the car with the bald tyres being infinitely better for drifting because the car with slicks would grip for ages and then lose traction at a point which would be impossible to recover, whereas the bald tyres would lose traction much sooner at a point which is within limits of control - does this make sense?
I know this is an extreme comparison, but the principle should still applies between light/heavy cars because lighter cars have inherently more grip (ie. like the slicks). Another thing which gives more grip is well designed independent suspension which new cars usually have and muscle cars sometimes don't. Incidentally this is also a good description IMO of progressive oversteer - the car with bald tyres would have progressive oversteer, the car with slicks would have snappy unprogressive oversteer.
By the way I am in no way saying that everyone should sell their cars and go drifting in muscle cars - quite the contrary, but it just seems a little weird to me that there aren't more people drifting in "domestics" - or are there?
Mark
If you use slicks, it'd make drifting very difficult as you would need to be going much faster to initiate the initial understeer, as well as need gobs of torque to keep the rears spinning. Of course, the opposite is true for the bald tires. You would have to drift extremely slower because you have less grip before the tires break traction.
To put it in other words, despite being in a 4 wheel slide you are still at the limits of traction and control, thus, higher grip = faster drift. Grip allows control. Losing grip at a slower speed does not make it any easier to control than a car with higher grip going faster. It's all relative, but what it boils down to is this: driver skill.
Also, lighter cars do not necessarily have better grip than heavier cars, they just respond better. Technically, heavier cars would grip better (all things being equal) since they apply more weight to the tires and provide a higher contact patch area, but there are several disadvantages to being heavy and this is why they don't make heavy racecars.
The reason a lot of people don't drift muscle cars, IMO, is that most muscle car guys are primarily drag racers and simply uninterested. Drifting in the states is dominated by the import scene. Not to say there isn't a domestic vechicle racing team, but I've yet to hear about any... It's just a different culture for them.
01-29-2004, 03:48 PM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by jayroc' date='Jan 29 2004, 06:12 PM
The reason a lot of people don't drift muscle cars, IMO, is that most muscle car guys are primarily drag racers and simply uninterested. Drifting in the states is dominated by the import scene. Not to say there isn't a domestic vechicle racing team, but I've yet to hear about any... It's just a different culture for them.
Originally Posted by jayroc' date='Jan 29 2004, 06:12 PM
I used to watch Dukes of Hazzard all the time when I was little...
If you use slicks, it'd make drifting very difficult as you would need to be going much faster to initiate the initial understeer, as well as need gobs of torque to keep the rears spinning. Of course, the opposite is true for the bald tires. You would have to drift extremely slower because you have less grip before the tires break traction.
To put it in other words, despite being in a 4 wheel slide you are still at the limits of traction and control, thus, higher grip = faster drift. Grip allows control. Losing grip at a slower speed does not make it any easier to control than a car with higher grip going faster. It's all relative, but what it boils down to is this: driver skill.
Also, lighter cars do not necessarily have better grip than heavier cars, they just respond better. Technically, heavier cars would grip better (all things being equal) since they apply more weight to the tires and provide a higher contact patch area, but there are several disadvantages to being heavy and this is why they don't make heavy racecars.
If you use slicks, it'd make drifting very difficult as you would need to be going much faster to initiate the initial understeer, as well as need gobs of torque to keep the rears spinning. Of course, the opposite is true for the bald tires. You would have to drift extremely slower because you have less grip before the tires break traction.
To put it in other words, despite being in a 4 wheel slide you are still at the limits of traction and control, thus, higher grip = faster drift. Grip allows control. Losing grip at a slower speed does not make it any easier to control than a car with higher grip going faster. It's all relative, but what it boils down to is this: driver skill.
Also, lighter cars do not necessarily have better grip than heavier cars, they just respond better. Technically, heavier cars would grip better (all things being equal) since they apply more weight to the tires and provide a higher contact patch area, but there are several disadvantages to being heavy and this is why they don't make heavy racecars.
Just two points i would like to make about your answer; firstly, I agree with your points about the slicks, I just am intregued when you say that grip is a positive thing when drifting?!
On a seperate note, I would imagine that a car fitted with slicks would be very hard to drift in - I was lucky enough to bag a go in a car fitted with full slicks
Secondly, with all due respect, you couldn't be further from the truth when you say that heavier cars grip better. If it's any consolation, most of the people I talk to seem to think that the kit-car I'm building will fly off at corners because the thing is so light! But the reality is in fact that the lighter the car is, the better it grips - the only way a heavier car would grip more is if the centre of gravity was below the plane at which the wheels touch the ground - which is obviously impossible, and since the COG is above that plane, it only makes sense to reduce the weight of the car and lower the COG where possible.
Mark
01-29-2004, 04:58 PM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: One hour north of chicago (Mundelein to be exact)
Posts: 811
I think a big advantage is for instance an 89 Mustang has shitty response and soft chassis compared to and 89 RX7. I'm not simply comparing that specific year but that's the case. Muscle cars are great for getting the back end around. I drove my friend's mustang and it's scary to get the back end out before entering the corner.
Another thing. One typically sets the setup to drift rather than a to grip setup. I don't think anyone would drift with an F1 car but it's just not setup for it.
These are all just opinions, however, if you think that a muscle car will be better than cool. I do believe that a large majority of the people believe that a responsive and light car is good for drifting.
It gives you style to drift faster as well so you want more grip but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone drifting on slicks though.
Maybe Ranzo has some input. He seems to be very knowledgable about this stuff I haven't tried enough setups to say what the facts are exactly
Another thing. One typically sets the setup to drift rather than a to grip setup. I don't think anyone would drift with an F1 car but it's just not setup for it.
These are all just opinions, however, if you think that a muscle car will be better than cool. I do believe that a large majority of the people believe that a responsive and light car is good for drifting.
It gives you style to drift faster as well so you want more grip but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone drifting on slicks though.
Maybe Ranzo has some input. He seems to be very knowledgable about this stuff I haven't tried enough setups to say what the facts are exactly
01-30-2004, 12:03 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by rmaiersg' date='Jan 29 2004, 11:58 PM
I think a big advantage is for instance an 89 Mustang has shitty response and soft chassis compared to and 89 RX7. I'm not simply comparing that specific year but that's the case. Muscle cars are great for getting the back end around. I drove my friend's mustang and it's scary to get the back end out before entering the corner.
Another thing. One typically sets the setup to drift rather than a to grip setup. I don't think anyone would drift with an F1 car but it's just not setup for it.
These are all just opinions, however, if you think that a muscle car will be better than cool. I do believe that a large majority of the people believe that a responsive and light car is good for drifting.
It gives you style to drift faster as well so you want more grip but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone drifting on slicks though.
Maybe Ranzo has some input. He seems to be very knowledgable about this stuff I haven't tried enough setups to say what the facts are exactly
Another thing. One typically sets the setup to drift rather than a to grip setup. I don't think anyone would drift with an F1 car but it's just not setup for it.
These are all just opinions, however, if you think that a muscle car will be better than cool. I do believe that a large majority of the people believe that a responsive and light car is good for drifting.
It gives you style to drift faster as well so you want more grip but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone drifting on slicks though.
Maybe Ranzo has some input. He seems to be very knowledgable about this stuff I haven't tried enough setups to say what the facts are exactly
Mark
02-01-2004, 06:07 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Memphis, Japan
Posts: 427
I don't see a problem with drifting any kind of car if you can do it. Everyone knows the guy in Hawaii who drifts a Camaro!! I give him mad props.. he has the usual drifters attitude kinda like who gives a **** just drive what you got and its fun to try things.
I hope everyone tries not to make drift SOOOO serious. It is fine to be serious when driving and to compete against each other but at the same time don't start hatin on everyone who is different than you. Some people suck, some people are dumb and Others are really good. These divisions are obvious in everyones minds so if you are good then turn it on and kick everyones *** but don't be an *******. I say all this because everyone likes to say you cant do this and blah blah blah. Most people are not gonna become Pro drifters so just have fun with it.
As far as slicks go......Neve seen anyone use all out slicks. Semi Slicks I have seen alot Taniguchi used them for a while on the front of his Sylvia....a couple times he used them all the way around I think. Some people can drift on S tires.......I have never tried it My Falken Azenis will hold my car faster than I care to drift. Now In the D1 grand prix only Radial tires can be used In that level of sport S tyres gives a great advantage to those who can afford them. Not everyone can afford them or afford the power to spin them on the rear. Jayroc is Pretty close in his explanation of the effects that would happen.
Using low grade tires for beginners is a good idea, I don't reccomend bald tires because that is dangerous and they won't last as long. On the front use a better tire....you can afford it because they last a long time if your alignment is correct. A higer Grip tire will allow faster drifts....or should I say require faster drifts. A low traction tire will force you to go slower. I have drifted up hill on bald tires wondering if I could climb the hill.......LOL my car moved forward sooo slow and the *** end was coming out fast .
Try different setups and see what works for you........this is the only way to tell you have to balance everything Horsepower VS tires.....suspension vs tires and skill..... Front tires vs rear tires........It is all about balance.
I hope everyone tries not to make drift SOOOO serious. It is fine to be serious when driving and to compete against each other but at the same time don't start hatin on everyone who is different than you. Some people suck, some people are dumb and Others are really good. These divisions are obvious in everyones minds so if you are good then turn it on and kick everyones *** but don't be an *******. I say all this because everyone likes to say you cant do this and blah blah blah. Most people are not gonna become Pro drifters so just have fun with it.
As far as slicks go......Neve seen anyone use all out slicks. Semi Slicks I have seen alot Taniguchi used them for a while on the front of his Sylvia....a couple times he used them all the way around I think. Some people can drift on S tires.......I have never tried it My Falken Azenis will hold my car faster than I care to drift. Now In the D1 grand prix only Radial tires can be used In that level of sport S tyres gives a great advantage to those who can afford them. Not everyone can afford them or afford the power to spin them on the rear. Jayroc is Pretty close in his explanation of the effects that would happen.
Using low grade tires for beginners is a good idea, I don't reccomend bald tires because that is dangerous and they won't last as long. On the front use a better tire....you can afford it because they last a long time if your alignment is correct. A higer Grip tire will allow faster drifts....or should I say require faster drifts. A low traction tire will force you to go slower. I have drifted up hill on bald tires wondering if I could climb the hill.......LOL my car moved forward sooo slow and the *** end was coming out fast .
Try different setups and see what works for you........this is the only way to tell you have to balance everything Horsepower VS tires.....suspension vs tires and skill..... Front tires vs rear tires........It is all about balance.