Stick Shifts Are Dead
12-20-2002, 08:17 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 277
Some people just dont get it...
http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/17/pf/autos/s..._wars/index.htm
Killing the stick-shift dinosaur
Manual transmissions still have their fans, but are they really better? Not anymore. Not really.
December 18, 2002: 11:10 AM EST
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNN/Money Staff Writer
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It was my father, an avid sports car enthusiast, who made sure his kids got the "automatics are for weenies" gospel. And I believed.
Then I began to stray. A few years ago, I got my first car with an automatic transmission.
And I liked it.
So I wondered: Are there really any good arguments for driving a stick shift anymore? I thought there probably weren't. Automatic transmissions are far more sophisticated today than in decades past and the drawbacks that once came with automatics have largely been eliminated. To confirm my suspicions I put in a call to Roger Kwapich, who hosts a syndicated radio program called Consumer Automotive Repair show, better know as the C.A.R. Show.
Taking it one-by-one, let's look at the arguments for sticking with stick-shift driving.
Stick shift saves gas!
Sure, if you drive the way they do in gas mileage tests. Now, let's be really honest with ourselves here. Do you drive that way in real life? If you wanted to drive like your grandmother, you'd have gotten the automatic to begin with. The way people drive in the real world, stick shift saves you nary a drop. In fact, you may actually be getting worse mileage than you would have with the car doing the shifts for you.
With the advent of computer chips, automatics are much better at timing those shifts than they used to be, says Kwapich, Just as with a manual shift, if you don't drive like a fuel-hogging freak your transmission won't either.
It gives me more power!
Opposing viewpoint
Allen Wastler: The stick-shift riff
Once upon time, this was true. But two things have changed: Engines and transmissions. "Cars just aren't underpowered anymore," says Kwapich.
Not too long ago, if your car had an automatic and fewer than eight cylinders -- certainly fewer than six -- your biggest driving thrill was trying to merge onto a highway without getting squashed like a bug on the front bumper of an eighteen-wheeler. These days, having been through energy squeezes and tough competition from the Japanese, even once-wasteful American car makers have learned to wring every pony out of the daintiest little engines.
About the transmissions, see above. Increased efficiency means more engine power goes to moving the car rather than getting sucked away by slow or badly timed shifts. Today's automatic transmissions also offer more flexibility in shift styles. Often, if you want a more power-oriented shifting style you can just press a button.
It's cheaper!
Maybe, but probably not in the long run. If the car you want even comes with a standard transmission the automatic will probably cost you $800 to $900 more, says Joe Cashen, director of pricing for Carsdirect.com. In most cases, you'll get that back when you go to sell the car. The exception, he adds, might be for those cars in which stick-shift is de rigueur, for example a sporty little Mazda Miata.
If you have to look hard for the car you want in stick form, it's probably going to actually cost you money in the long run, he says. If a car company doesn't make many cars of a particular model with a standard transmission it's probably because they know they can't sell them that way. And if very few people want to buy that new family sedan or SUV with stick-shift, you think you're going to do better finding a buyer when you need to sell it? Good luck.
It saves wear on my brakes!
Some stick-shift drivers including CNN/Money's Allen Wastler, insist that stick shifts save them money by allowing them to downshift -- that is, shift into a lower gear to slow the car, something mechanics call "engine braking" -- and save wear on their brakes.
So, let's think this through: We want to save wear on brake shoes, cheap and easily replaceable parts, by transferring that wear and stress to the clutch and the engine. Brake pads are much easier and cheaper to replace than clutches and the added stress on your engine can shorten its life. At best, you're not saving anything. At worst, you could actually be inviting expensive repairs.
It focuses the attention!
Someone driving a stick-shift car is really thinking about driving, the argument goes. He is part of a true man-machine union and is, therefore, more attuned to all aspects of driving, including those aspects involved in not hitting other cars, trees or light posts.
Not having to shift gears certainly does not cause me to forget the fact that I'm driving. There are these aspects called "steering," "accelerating" and "braking" with which I remain intimately involved. And, in a good car, feedback through the steering wheel, pedals and seat remain undiminished. I am no less aware of my vehicle's behavior in any important respect with an automatic transmission.
Then there are those hazards caused by the average person's limited number of arms. Between changing CDs, answering the cell phone, drinking coffee and gesturing out the window at "that moron," do you really need something else that occupies one hand and a leg? Two hands on the wheel may be asking a bit much, but most safety experts do recommend at least one, pretty much at all times.
It's just more fun!
You might have me there. These days there are plenty of cars, more expensive ones mostly, that offer automatics with "clutchless" shifting to give you that heady feeling of gear selection when you want it. But without the clutch, half the fun is gone.
So there really is no easy answer. With modern automotive technology, there's just no good reason to keep shifting gears yourself. But maybe you don't need a good reason. Maybe you just like knowing that you can pick your own gears.
http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/17/pf/autos/s..._wars/index.htm
Killing the stick-shift dinosaur
Manual transmissions still have their fans, but are they really better? Not anymore. Not really.
December 18, 2002: 11:10 AM EST
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNN/Money Staff Writer
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - It was my father, an avid sports car enthusiast, who made sure his kids got the "automatics are for weenies" gospel. And I believed.
Then I began to stray. A few years ago, I got my first car with an automatic transmission.
And I liked it.
So I wondered: Are there really any good arguments for driving a stick shift anymore? I thought there probably weren't. Automatic transmissions are far more sophisticated today than in decades past and the drawbacks that once came with automatics have largely been eliminated. To confirm my suspicions I put in a call to Roger Kwapich, who hosts a syndicated radio program called Consumer Automotive Repair show, better know as the C.A.R. Show.
Taking it one-by-one, let's look at the arguments for sticking with stick-shift driving.
Stick shift saves gas!
Sure, if you drive the way they do in gas mileage tests. Now, let's be really honest with ourselves here. Do you drive that way in real life? If you wanted to drive like your grandmother, you'd have gotten the automatic to begin with. The way people drive in the real world, stick shift saves you nary a drop. In fact, you may actually be getting worse mileage than you would have with the car doing the shifts for you.
With the advent of computer chips, automatics are much better at timing those shifts than they used to be, says Kwapich, Just as with a manual shift, if you don't drive like a fuel-hogging freak your transmission won't either.
It gives me more power!
Opposing viewpoint
Allen Wastler: The stick-shift riff
Once upon time, this was true. But two things have changed: Engines and transmissions. "Cars just aren't underpowered anymore," says Kwapich.
Not too long ago, if your car had an automatic and fewer than eight cylinders -- certainly fewer than six -- your biggest driving thrill was trying to merge onto a highway without getting squashed like a bug on the front bumper of an eighteen-wheeler. These days, having been through energy squeezes and tough competition from the Japanese, even once-wasteful American car makers have learned to wring every pony out of the daintiest little engines.
About the transmissions, see above. Increased efficiency means more engine power goes to moving the car rather than getting sucked away by slow or badly timed shifts. Today's automatic transmissions also offer more flexibility in shift styles. Often, if you want a more power-oriented shifting style you can just press a button.
It's cheaper!
Maybe, but probably not in the long run. If the car you want even comes with a standard transmission the automatic will probably cost you $800 to $900 more, says Joe Cashen, director of pricing for Carsdirect.com. In most cases, you'll get that back when you go to sell the car. The exception, he adds, might be for those cars in which stick-shift is de rigueur, for example a sporty little Mazda Miata.
If you have to look hard for the car you want in stick form, it's probably going to actually cost you money in the long run, he says. If a car company doesn't make many cars of a particular model with a standard transmission it's probably because they know they can't sell them that way. And if very few people want to buy that new family sedan or SUV with stick-shift, you think you're going to do better finding a buyer when you need to sell it? Good luck.
It saves wear on my brakes!
Some stick-shift drivers including CNN/Money's Allen Wastler, insist that stick shifts save them money by allowing them to downshift -- that is, shift into a lower gear to slow the car, something mechanics call "engine braking" -- and save wear on their brakes.
So, let's think this through: We want to save wear on brake shoes, cheap and easily replaceable parts, by transferring that wear and stress to the clutch and the engine. Brake pads are much easier and cheaper to replace than clutches and the added stress on your engine can shorten its life. At best, you're not saving anything. At worst, you could actually be inviting expensive repairs.
It focuses the attention!
Someone driving a stick-shift car is really thinking about driving, the argument goes. He is part of a true man-machine union and is, therefore, more attuned to all aspects of driving, including those aspects involved in not hitting other cars, trees or light posts.
Not having to shift gears certainly does not cause me to forget the fact that I'm driving. There are these aspects called "steering," "accelerating" and "braking" with which I remain intimately involved. And, in a good car, feedback through the steering wheel, pedals and seat remain undiminished. I am no less aware of my vehicle's behavior in any important respect with an automatic transmission.
Then there are those hazards caused by the average person's limited number of arms. Between changing CDs, answering the cell phone, drinking coffee and gesturing out the window at "that moron," do you really need something else that occupies one hand and a leg? Two hands on the wheel may be asking a bit much, but most safety experts do recommend at least one, pretty much at all times.
It's just more fun!
You might have me there. These days there are plenty of cars, more expensive ones mostly, that offer automatics with "clutchless" shifting to give you that heady feeling of gear selection when you want it. But without the clutch, half the fun is gone.
So there really is no easy answer. With modern automotive technology, there's just no good reason to keep shifting gears yourself. But maybe you don't need a good reason. Maybe you just like knowing that you can pick your own gears.
12-20-2002, 09:02 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 343
Then there are those hazards caused by the average person's limited number of arms. Between changing CDs, answering the cell phone, drinking coffee and gesturing out the window at "that moron," do you really need something else that occupies one hand and a leg? Two hands on the wheel may be asking a bit much, but most safety experts do recommend at least one, pretty much at all times.
That says it all. This "guy" is obvisouly a woman.
12-20-2002, 09:23 AM
#4
Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: VA
Posts: 2,532
I hate automatics. Never mind that they're better than they used to be. They are. Much better. And yes, if you're stuck in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, a stick shift can be a bitch. But let's face it, an automatic wouldn't have you smiling if you were stuck out on 287 during rush hour anyway.
IMO, automatics are just one step along the way to some people's ideal of a car that you sit in, push a button, and "Voila" you arrive at your destination. No shifting, no steering no braking. A ******* idiot's paradise.
Me, I happen to like driving. And if the next new car I'm looking to buy isn't offered with a manual tranny, I'll tell them to shove it. And I'll buy one that comes with a stick. Some companies still get it. The Audi A6 is available with a nice 6-speed box. Lots, if not most BMW's are sold with stickshifts. It may be that the American automakers are right, it's what most buyers want, but it isn't what I want. Dammit.
IMO, automatics are just one step along the way to some people's ideal of a car that you sit in, push a button, and "Voila" you arrive at your destination. No shifting, no steering no braking. A ******* idiot's paradise.
Me, I happen to like driving. And if the next new car I'm looking to buy isn't offered with a manual tranny, I'll tell them to shove it. And I'll buy one that comes with a stick. Some companies still get it. The Audi A6 is available with a nice 6-speed box. Lots, if not most BMW's are sold with stickshifts. It may be that the American automakers are right, it's what most buyers want, but it isn't what I want. Dammit.
12-20-2002, 10:12 AM
#5
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stuart, FL
Posts: 24,416
I've never even owned an automatic, I learned to drive and took my license test on a manual. Driving is driving, I want to be in it as much as possible. Get me an auto and I'll prolly start taking naps on the way to work LOL
My argument would be that auto's cause complatency, much like the auto-pilots installed in aircraft, it has been proven auto pilots cause pilots to be less attentive, flight deck onversations have increased 10 fold and their ability to react to crisis has been reduced.
My argument would be that auto's cause complatency, much like the auto-pilots installed in aircraft, it has been proven auto pilots cause pilots to be less attentive, flight deck onversations have increased 10 fold and their ability to react to crisis has been reduced.
12-20-2002, 11:09 AM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
that article is plain wrong, what happens when the tranny fails at 30k miles and then again at 60k when the car isn't under warranty? we used to stock every single automatic that mazda made because thats how often they fail, you could walk from one end of the parts department to the other walking on the tranny boxes and never have to take a long step. the chrysler dealer was even worse, they did our monthly volume in a day or 2.
AUTOMATICS ARE EVIL!!!!!!
mike
AUTOMATICS ARE EVIL!!!!!!
mike
12-20-2002, 11:44 AM
#8
Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 5,425
to tell you the truth, I nearly fall asleep while driving an auto at work all the time. it's frightening. and like the person states, stick is more fun. we've neglected one honest truth here: with a stick, you can rev the engine without having to shift to neutral...that makes up for bumper-to-bumper traffic
and then 