Well, I'll try and make this as short as possible.



I originally wanted to rebuild my 13b and drop about 6 grand into it. This money will give me around 500whp. Unfortunately, my motor is not going to last very long when it's pushing that much power. So I was trying to find a solution for high hp #'s that would be more reliable.



Then I got to thinking about a 20b. I know it's quite a bit more expensive, but I'm sure it's far more reliable because it's high horsepower is basically "stock" numbers so-to-speak.



So here's my question. What will cost me more in the long run. My 13b hooked up to 450-500whp, or a 20b turbo swap that'll produce more horsepower, more reliably?



I figure they both will suck about the same gas, because I was going to put the HKS 20b fuel pump on the 13b anyways.



I posted this here because I figure more people will look at it. I would greatly appreciate any help offered.

Well, you make a few good points. The 20B will make the same power more reliably and will last longer. They'll use about the same mount of fuel for the same amount of power. From what I can tell, the only disadvantage to the 20B swap is the money. It can make more reliable power, a **** oad of torque, the coolness factor is through the roof and exculsivity is a key.



Here's my suggestion. Let Ito build you a bulletproof 13B which you can tune to 400whp for daily driving at acertain level of boost, then tune for 500 or 550whp at high boost and get a nice boost controler.



When you need it, switch on the fly and blow the doors of whatever gets in you way and then turn the boost back down. Honestly, who uses 500+ whp on a daily basis?



But, I hate to be an idea killer, I hate it when I get an idea nad people bluntly say that it isn't possible. So, if you want the 20B, get all the info on what you'll need before hand. Make sure you get your finances straight and set realistic goals and go for it.



Good luck dude.

I have to agree with "Shiney Pants" https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif 20B's are wicked cool and I'd give my left nut for one but they aren't exactly cheap. I've heard that Judge Ito really knows how to put together a great motor, and that whole boost controller idea is just way cool https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/happy.png



Pressing a button and blowing everyone off the road = WIN ... And it's not like you couldn't before the "button" https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/BURNOUT.gif

ill race you to install a 20B in an FD....

Sell the FD. You'll have enought to have a kick-ass 20b powered FB.

It's all about preference, and he would prefer a 20B powered FD.

Thanks Damir. You make a valid point about the 13B that I left unsaid. I already have done some necessary internal work to the motor, but I'm afraid it wont last long regardless. Dragon Motor Sports has an untuned, T-78 13B pushing about 490whp, and it's been running for over a year on 17 psi (same setup I was going to get). Then, of course, a good fuel/boost controller like a Greddy E-01 would keep the power down for daily use. I intended on doing this if I hooked up the 13B.



Then again, a 20B is ****** sexy, and fast as **** to boot. Reliability wouldn't be nearly as large of an issue as the 13B would, because the insane horsepower practically comes stock. Unfortunately and fortunately, even with zero boost, that motor will put out tons of power, and suck lots of fuel.



Oh well, I need to ponder on this for a while. Thanks for all the current input.

Whatever you pick man ... Your Seven's gonna rock hardcore!



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif

Most would, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices to have what you really and truly want.

20B in an FD is a LOT more work and money versus into an FC.



I don't know who you are or what you background is, but a 400hp at the wheels RX-7 scares the hell out of me. 500rwhp on the street is next to uncontrollable, and 600hp at the wheels can easily kill you in a blink of an eye.



600hp is pretty high strung for a 13B in my book, and I would recommend 20B if you think you can handle 600hp (or more).



Be aware that the increased torque will make the car drive drastically different.

600hp 13B is NOT equal to a 600hp 20B.



A 20B Cosmo fuel pump will NOT support 600hp on either engine.

You're going to need a pretty expensive fuel system to support power levels like that and breaking $1,000 just on the fuel components will not surprise me.



A 20B sucks a LOT more fuel even if the 13B makes the same amount of power.

On average, it's at least a 20% drop in fuel economy for identical driving trips.

A 13B pulling 20mpg will usually mean a 20B producing 15mpg driving the same routes.

Gas prices are on the rise, so I dunno if this will bother you.



A 20B producing 600hp will also produce about 550lb-ft+ of torque - this will break drivetrains parts, so I hope you're willing to face this fact. A 13B producing 600hp, will make about 500lb-ft of torque, and this is on the edge of the drivetrain capacity but may or may not break stuff.







-Ted

And here we see a lot of great points made. Be prepared to drop a lot of money in towards a Guru dog box, a reinforced PPF, rear end, etc. because 500 to the wheels both torque and HP from a 20B will eat the stock compontents very shortly.



Plus, I don't know if you've ever driven a synchroless tranny, but it's not much fun when you miss a shift or forget to rev-match LOL.

pff any amout of decent horsepower will break ****, look at vosko! It depends on how you drive it i guess.

the guro dog box doesnt have synchros beacsue it doesnt need any. it has dog gears.

LOL! So a good drive on some twisties would be "taking the dogs for a walk"



HAHAHAHA

Another thought, get a different daily driver? I'd feel odd with that much hp on the street everyday and itd drive my nuts filling up ever few days.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683664.gif Read what you just wrote LOL.

most of the dog gear trannys ive heard of dont even use clutches, it doesnt have a synchromesh, it has little teeth on it that go into a grrove on the other instead of all that other junk.

Suck on the street though, since you have no clutch there is no slipping of a clutch so it grabs hard in each gear on each shift.

WOW....um...yeah! a dog box...aka the guru tranny... is the same as a normal syncromesh gear box minus the syncros. it has dog teeth that grab and change the shaft speeds instead of the syncro rings gradually changing speeds. you still have a clutch. and you still should use it. you don't "have" to because the dogbox is much stronger, but you still should. and when you shift gears with a dog box you have to do it fast or you will tear up the teeth. and it'll make horrible noises on the street that will turn heads...ppl will look at you like you are ripping you tranny apart.



Eyxom i'd get the 20b. i thought about it alot before i started my buildup, but didn't think i'd have the cash. BUT now that i've spent 17K on a 13b-re i wish i woulda went ahead with the 20b for about the same price. whats a few grand when yo've spent as much as me and still don't have a running car. Basically do what you really want to do but realize it'll cost more than 6k. 500rwhp takes alot of $$$ to make as safe and reliable as possible.



good luck

Transport trucks have dogged 10 speed (or more) transmissions.



You still have a clutch, nothing out of the ordinary there, it's just you don't need it to shift if you can rev match good. Diesel trucks (the ones mated to a dogged tranny) have a shifting band of 1 - 1.5 k rpm, it's easy to shift.



Now on a rotary, with shifting anywhere from 3k - 9k, it's a little different.. Isn't it?



And yes the whine. Oh I love that whine.

500 RWHP is a lot to handle. My car is in the 375RWHP range right now after finally getting a boost controler on it. I have noticed its almost too much for the street. It will loose traction and turn sideways while going straight in second gear if I floor it. In third it looses traction but stays straight. I was just talking to Phins about this. I had planned on putting Vosko's T-78 on and shooting for 450 RWHP. I am now having second thoughts because I think its gonna make the car undriveable.



@ 375 RWHP on the street my car scares the crap out of me.



If I were you Exyom I would shoot for a little less HP and spend the money on suspension. Maybe a stand alone and other things. Just my opinion.

good points jim, whats the use of power if you cant drive it



maybe if your into bragging rights, but in the real world you

want a car you can drive

Good point Jims. I get scared shitless riding with FD3Boost in his 3rd gen. He is pushing about the same power as you Jims. Maybe more, or less. Don't know. But he scares me sometimes.



But a 20b even N/A power would be practically unstoppable on the streets, and even on the track. I don't know the costs of them, and pondering if I should go for it in my FC once I gain more experience.



But, whatever you go with, I am sure it will kick some SERIOUS ass.

Is a dogbox tranny lighter or heavier than a normal tranny? Or is the difference nominal?

Well, it would make sense for it to be lighter, but then again, the teeth I think are a lot bigger which could account for the weight lost from the synchros. I have no idea.

Yea I still have to consider everything.



If I do upgrade the 13B, I'll no doubt have a nice boost/fuel controller like the E-01 to switch back and forth. If I do shoot for the 450-500 whp range for racing, I'll have a low boost/fuel setting at around 300-350whp for street use. I just wanted some impressive #'s without all the hassle of constant rebuilds like I figured I would have on the 13B.



The 20B honestly frightens me a bit. If I do end up doing the 20B, I think I'm going to turn the FD into a project weekend car and buying a cheap little beater to drive around during the week. A positive and a negative of the 20B is it's minimum horsepower is still monstrous. Thus, it would be good as a weekend and project car to show off, but driving it everyday to work and in traffic all the time would get to be very tidious.



I still have a lot to think on. I think I'll call Cameron at Pettit and see what he has to say about it. I need to drive down there and have him take a peek at my motor anyways so he can figure out what's up with the water and power steering pump.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/angry.png https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/*******.gif



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif

Our 20B NA FC project is up to $6k right now - not too bad.

I think we finally got the kinks out, and I think it's easily surpassing 200hp to the wheels with all stock internals.

Dyno is scheduled tomorrow, so this should be interesting. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png





-Ted

Let us know the results Ted.



I've always been curious of a well put together N/A 20B dyno. You have the reputation as a competent builder. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

If you want hp bragging rights get a supra.

Shut up fool, there are plenty of RX-7 dyno queens, you just don't know where to look.

look theres way more supra dyno queens than 7's. look at those prices!

He's right though, Damir..



700 hp and they STILL run 12s.. LOL

Don't expect miracles...



The engine is bone stock internally.

We're running an unequal length custom welded header, so it's not optimal.

We're lucky to break 200hp.

I estimate 230-250 right now.

I'd be happy if we break 250 at the end of the day.

If it comes close to 300, I'm buying all the drinks!

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683329.gif







-Ted

Short version, the engine made 232hp at the wheels on a DynoJet.

We were fighting ignition break-up above 7kRPM all day, and only had a few clean runs.

We found out, by accident, that the current air filter was too restrictive! After removing the air filter cause the clamp broke, we decided the run the without it - the power dropped. Checked the AFR's, and it went up at least almost half a point - doh, air filter was too small. It was some cheapie K&N cone rip-off, but it was of decent size - 3" ID mount, 6" - 7" base, 5" top, center inverted cone filter surface area (like the old R.S.Akimoto funnel-ram).



Adjusting the fuel and ignition maps did not affect power delivery that much - our street tuning was very close.



If the high RPM miss was fixed with a big filter, I would guess it would've been +10hp easy, maybe up to 250hp...



Oh well, not bad considering it's a bone stock motor with no turbos...





-Ted

imho..

upgrade your driving ability prior to upgradin your ride...

run a 200whp under aggressive track condition and see how much you can withstand..

then progress from there..

that is of course your intentions are road course..

otherwise.. its a different ball game with straights..

thats not bad, i have a 139rwhp@12psi dyno sheet around here somewhere....



i think you need to upgrade to 6 coils, when you have the dual posts the spark is weak!

Hey Ted, how does it sound without a turbo? Any videos? The unequal length headers ought to make the idle sound a little different.

A couple years back when I started my t2 conversion I considered a 20b, but then I looked at how many actually run correctly...