Does anyone give a ****? What a joke, the media and the powers that be picked Obama months ago, why waste everyone's time and money? What a bunch of dirtbag crooks.



OK above is the original topic, which morphed into the topical political discussion, let's preface this topic with ENTER AND POST AT YOUR OWN RISK if you offend easily don't waste your time here.



Let's discuss.

You sound like you might be just a wee tad bit cynical?



Heard about the allegations that Obama was born in Kenya and his birth certificate is a forgery?

Flying humanoids?!

Fokker triplanes, really.

I don't understand the whole business. Or maybe I do understand it, but refuse to accept it because it's stupid.

These are rich people, this is what they do. Their whole life is a ******* convention or a party only they all hope to be a president or presidential nominee or a governor or a mayor so they can party on tax-payers money.

they have to give the press SOMETHING to cover, otherwise its more britney spears....

No ****, for awhile I had to turn the "national news" off in the morning, because that's all they would talk about.

its funny how desperate the news is for "news"

No it's sad how desperate the media is to NOT report on the things that are happening all over the world and actually matter, instead they are doing fluff pieces on idiot presidential candidates.

yeah, you make a good point el capitan

Listened to O's speach last week as the wife watched and felt like I was listening to the girl Summer in Napoleon Dynamite giving a High School speech promising the world.



Yes, Palin has my interest, truly a blue collar family that is offered an opportunity of a lifetime. McCain and his advisers are brilliant.



Look, a chick that hunts, fishes, holds a NRA membership for life and is hot to boot after what, 17 kids, is o.k. by me.



A pitbull with lipstick, I hope that was not scripted because that won me over right there.







But, agreed, the conventions are nothing more than Kool Aid sessions for the parties, all they are missing in Jimmy Jones.



It was interesting to see Palin and see what her speech writers would make her say. At least she looked good doing it.

If you think Palin is where it's at you've been drinking some of the kool-aid, she's a neo con nut job with a somewhat pretty face, but hey that's all most of america is interested in.

Liberals and neo cons are pretty much the same in my opinion, they never put their money where their mouth is, they say one thing, then when it takes some effort or god forbid money on their behalf they change their ******* mind and have all sorts of reasons for doing so, in short they are verbally committed to all sorts of wonderful things, but they have no intention of actually getting them done.



Palin is a joke, McCain and her both have said she's against earmarking, they have made a point to say that, the truth is she hired a lobbying firm to get 17 million in ear marks for a city with a population well under 10,000. She lied.... she even said she put a stop to a terrible ear mark... aka the bridge to nowhere, except she also lied here too, she ran for gov of alaska FOR the bridge to nowhere, then later said she was against, cancelled the project but KEPT the 233 million from the ear mark for "transportation improvements". She's also a scary religious zealot, but that's a different topic I don't feel like going into. I could go on for days about Palin, let's face the odds of McCain making it through the first term are slim, you vote for McCain/Palin plan on her crazy ass being president in the near future.



Obama is no different running on this crap change platform then picking the fourth longest sitting senator in the us, this is anything but change. biden is the same old **** that's been sticking it to us for last 30 years, but oh yea i'm for change. I haven't heard the asshat provide one solution or any game plan as to how he's gonna "change" a damn thing, let's not forget Bush was in fact a "candidate of change" he ran with a very similar slogan and he's nothing but a drunken idiot that wouldn't be fit to clean the toilets in any country where the system is a complete trash heap of debt strapped, un educated and mostly afraid citizens who are just trying to pay the bills.



But never fear registered voters cause there is no "right" choice this election, both candidates spell disaster and your friends in the media will help you decide what's best for you.

Agreed, on all points, go back and re read my post, more simply put she is a puppet on the Republican hand.





I am looking a this from a business stand point, do I want Obama who is going to tax the living **** out of me as a small business owner in a failing economy or do I want McCain who is going to put this country in more of a hole following the status quo of the earlier regime?



The answer is loose no matter what.



Change is NOT good, radical change in this economy will send up into a full blown recession possibly a depression, I can almost guaranty the later if the Democrats Jesus gets in office.



As the love doctors put it here in Florida, We are Screwed. There is no good choice, I liked Ron Paul, I thought he would be a good change, but what do I know.



There was a reason I sold my Porsche, I am selling my vacation home (contract pending https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub... ) and I am circling my wagons, I see really bad times coming. These are not bad times, thse are good times compared to whats coming.



I think Americans in general are oblivious to what is really going on, most of the major banks are about to collapse, the big 3 Automakers are closing down, America is for sale and is being scooped up at an unprecedented rate as I type this. Budweiser, gone, Chrysler Building in NYC gone, National Parks, gone.



Wait, Washington Mutual, Wachovia, Fannie and Freddie Mack are all in BIG trouble, I see it every day in my line of work, I am doing about 40 mortgage surveys a week as mostly international corporations are buying up property here in Florida, ALL of it foreclosed on and being sold for hundreds of thousands less than it was mortgaged for (and defaulted on) 2-3 years ago.



How long can this go one before the banks cave in, the funny part? No one knows this is going on, its not on the news, the presidential candidates dare not speak of it. Yet its going on every day, day in and day out.



There is a **** storm on the horizon and no one knows its coming.

I am going to flip flop here. The more I think about this Palin chick the more I like what I see. She is Blue Collar and a regular person that started getting involved to make changes, first with the PTA then working her way up to Governor. All the while her husband works on a commercial fishing boat (family business) and in oil fields.



You can hyper focus on one issue all you one, Earmarking for example, as I had it explained to me she dislikes it, she has used it and its one of those "norms" that you hate but if you do not use it you'll be screwed over. A necessary evil in a broken system?



Religious Zealot I love this one, everyone is so scared of the abortion issue. We had a co worker who voted a party line based on Gun Ownership in 2004 and then in 2005 was dealing with a 1 night stand that missed her period and he was screaming abortion so fast your head would spin, yet, he voted in a guy that was anti-abortion and look how that changed the abortion laws. (BTW - since you think you know me well you do not I do not go to church anymore and I do not consider myself religious) No one person is going to change the abortion laws in America. I can never understand how this becomes such a huge issue every 4 years then goes back away.



We are all so sick of these good old boys and their club in Washington, well, here is a chick that is not part of the establishment about to head into Washington and no one wants here.



I think it would be nice to see what I consider as close to a regular person as your gonna get int his circus get in the White House. Of course she is going to have to fall in line with McCain but as you indicate the old fart might die and then you have to wonder what she would do and would it be all bad or all good. Career politicians do not seem to be doing a very good job anyway maybe something fresh and new is needed?





Its too bad Ron Paul's campaign never grew legs.

I'll dig up some videos for you too.



I this quote from her speech



I only need one question answered to prove this is complete horseshit. Does she think if she were an ugly woman she'd be standing up there? **** NO, McCain is a hideous old fool and he's standing up there.



I'm sorry but if you honestly believe woman get the same pay and opportunities as men regardless of their figure or looks you've been living under a ******* rock.

And this all goes back to my original theme, we shouldn't even be having this conversation, the conversation we should be having is Why the **** are we having to vote for any of these incompetent asshats. we should be pissed off that we are being forced to chose from either of these criminals

I'll agree with that. Been saying it all along as well

One thing that tends to piss me off is that if someone mentions God and is overtly religious, then they are labeled a "religious zealot" and unfit for anything but an asylum. But if they are covered in tattoos, spout profanity, and worship the devil, then they're "hella cool" and everybody loves them until they find out that he killed six people, raped a cat, and robbed liquor stores in his spare time.

Look into the church see attends, look at their core beliefs.



I personally don't think religion should even be mentioned in politics, furthermore many past electees have mentioned god and religion several times and I have never used the term zealot, so don't think for a minute it wasn't warranted. You watched that video and think it's perfectly normal? fine with me. Fairy tales aren't going to solve political issues, god isn't going to fix the economy, jesus isn't going to feed the poor and they sure as hell aren't going to fix the issues with this country, so if that's your ******* go to plan, your "crutch" we're fucked.

If you wanna do the homework and search through the youtube videos do it, there are tons and if you can watch those and figure she still has a grasp on reality, the separation of church and state, etc... then there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.



If you believe that Iraq is "A task that is from God", well then for our sakes I hope some magic, voodoo and incense will fix the issues facing this nation.



Oh btw, the website has totally changed, they took down all the sermons and the statements about "obeying gov't because it's god will" or something to that effect. I'll try to find it.



You will NEVER be able to convince me that someone who suggests that killing people is god's will isn't a fanatic (which for those of you not familiar is the definition of "zealot" that I am using here). Do you agree that iraq is god's will, do you believe any modern war is/was the will of god?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-1TGmwdK4



This one is good, "God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built"



God wants pipelines built? Wow, doesn't sound at all like she's got a terrible definition of church and state does it?



You don't find it slightly unhealthy or maybe even fanatical to suggest that "God" wants pipelines to pump more oil to continue to destroy the planet he built in I dunno what was it 7 days? Does he have time to get involved in pipeline projects? Hell I wasn't even aware that we had determined God to be a Capitalist https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif Is he a friedmanite?

Re the video, and I didn't watch the whole thing: Isn't she speaking in front of a church congregation?



First rule of public speaking is to tailor your "message" to the audience.



Is this a speech she should deliver in front of Congress? Obviously not.



Is she the best VP candidate McCain could have picked? Um... No?



Is this a move calculated to give him a shot at the White House? Yes?



Was it the right move? Time will tell.

So let me get this strait, don't believe what she says in church, believe what she says at conventions and to congress? I think those statements are a little more then pandering. **** she even said this stuff strait from her mouth, they tried to hang Obama on what his PASTOR said. Pandering may be skewing your speech toward your audience, but when you completely discount one statement to favor another based on audience then yer sipping too much of the koolaid. No matter how you cut it, those statements made in her church as the gov of alaska were that of a fanatic.... sorry.



Will it work, not in the sense they hope, she won't get any of Hillary's votes, why? well you see McCain and the rest of the predominantly male right wing think one vagina is the same as the next, females don't see it that way at all.



Her statement about woman having the opportunity to walk through any door in America is laughable, if she were 50 lbs heavier and a hell of a lot uglier I might have taken that statement as anything other then a slap in the face to the progress of woman's rights.

I can see your point. In fact, I think I've just had a complete reversal on this whole election thing. I think Obama is just what we need in the White House. He's pro-socialized health care, pro-big government, anti-business, anti-gun, anti-American. Perfect!



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif

He'd make a great Prime Minister...



LOL I wanted him as your president but when you put it that way I wouldn't want you to have to go through what we do up here...but I guess it's time for you guys to join the rest of the world.

You can compare Obama too Jimmy Carter, that is exactly what will happen if he gets elected, he'll do nothing he'll accomplish nothing and we'll be fucked in short order.



I've seen nothing from obama other then grand ideas with no means to accomplish them. The US has become the largest debtor nation the world has EVER seen, we are going to assume another 5 trillion, or another 50% increase this weekend (effectively) from the freddie fannie bailout. We've been printing money as fast as we can and it's driving our dollar down the tank, severe inflation is on it's way, trust me on this.



To say that Obama anti-business is just ridiculous, he's been bought and paid for by the same people who put bill clinton, bush and mccain in the seat, they cover their bets, you don't honestly think Obama is getting 500 million to run for president from you and I do you? Bill Clinton proved democrats could be bought just as easily as reps and the corporate ran america has been reaping the rewards ever since.



Anti American? Well I dunno about that, I personally think that every god damn one of the politicians in washington are anti american, i think they act in complete disregard to our constitution and I think when it comes to ******* over the american people both reps and dems can agree on the fact it's good for the masters they serve.



We have privatized everything in this nation in true Friedman fashion and the majority of the lopped off limbs of gov't go to no bid contracts, we have 1.4 us soldiers to every 1 contractor in Iraq, Blackwater has man power, training and equipment and they are working right here in the us and they are for hire, no longer does our gov't need the support of US soldiers to squash a coup or even worse declare marshall law. You can sit back and tell me all the things that will NEVER happen in the US, stock market crash, revolution, seceded states, etc, etc... keep the faith https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif



As I said before we should be marching in the streets due to the simple fact we are being forced to vote for ANY of these assholes. The corporate media picked Obama months ago and they are going to do everything they can to make sure he succeeds. How some asshat can stoke the fire with a mantra of change, then pick up some dirtbag 4th longest sitting senator as vp should only go to prove Obama can't be trusted, he's a snake oil salesmen and he's toxic for this nation.

You mention your huge debt, if you throw another Bush in office the problem will just continue...because that's how I see McCain. I want Bill Clinton back in office and his cigar as 2nd in command.

On this point, I see that we are in agreement! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif

Oh but you are mistaken, let's go back to his senate campaign to really see when he was first bought and where his debts are owed.



http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/sum...p?cid=N00009638



Goldman Sachs $689,280

University of California $531,070

JPMorgan Chase & Co $449,671

Citigroup Inc $411,504

Harvard University $407,452



Goldman, jp morgan, citigroup? Unions huh?



Now we'll go the presidential run:



This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.



http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib....p;cid=N00009638



Goldman Sachs $653,030

University of California $576,839

JPMorgan Chase & Co $414,760

Citigroup Inc $408,299

Harvard University $407,219

Google Inc $404,191

UBS AG $389,294

Lehman Brothers $361,482

National Amusements Inc $360,703

Moveon.org $347,463

Sidley Austin LLP $329,776

Microsoft Corp $326,847

Skadden, Arps et al $320,550

Morgan Stanley $307,221

Time Warner $305,538

WilmerHale $275,132

Jones Day $272,755

Latham & Watkins $270,595

University of Chicago $268,285

Stanford University



Loyalties lie with unions?



As far as the auto industry you can thank Bill Clinton and NAFTA for that and completely incompetent management of the companies.

Well, I suppose it's all in where you find your facts.









http://nwitimes.com/articles/2008/08/31/bu...4b400546300.txt









"Of all the political action committee donations made to the Obama campaign, 89.3 percent were from unions."





And you can't seriously consider liberal institutions of higher learning to be a "business"?

I wasn't aware the Rockafellers were a liberal institution.



I guess we'll see, but if you think Obama is going to owe his debts to labor, you're going to be pleasantly surprised, there's reasons people like Uncle Warren are backing Obama and it isn't because of "pro labor" outlook.



I'd even go as far as saying "political action committees" is a pretty narrow scope, banks and big business aren't in that category, bend the statistics how you want, the fact is he's taken a shitload of money from wallstreet.



Ooh, ooh, lets bend them to say other things "of all the financial sector donations, obama took the most from banks" gee, that's crazy.

Anyhow, if I thought Obama was pro labor union, pro socialized medicine for even a second........ I might just vote for him https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.gif

O.K. Forget the Bitch that loves Jesus for a minute:



How about what is going to happen to business in America once Obama gets in office?



I have 2 friends that own businesses and PROVIDE JOBS that are making plans right now to move out of the USA if Obama is elected. Fortunately they have the ability to do so and have opportunity outside the USA to make a good living.



American corporations and small business owners are already taxed to death and Obama wants to tax them some more so he can provide all the lazy people with more "programs" to help them be lazy.



As I have said before like a broken record we are on the verge of a hard recession maybe a depression and making big changes will guarantee that.



Taxes the hell out of those who are trying is not the solution but will compound the problem.



Why are we in such a mess? Is it the deficit? MAYBE is the stupid people in this country. That is why we are where we are right now, not the government.



Freddie and Fanny are about to collapse, like I said they would months ago. Who's fault is this? Government? No its their fault and the peoples for borrowing irresponsibly.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/b...&amp...amp;oref=slogin



Does anyone realize if Freddie (FRE) and Fanny (FNM) collapse there are no mortgages to get? None, you will no longer be able to buy a home unless its cash only or pay huge interest rates.





Quote:



The background is:

- FNM and FRE are nearly the only lenders left in the housing market. If FNM and FRE cease lending, there will effectively be no more new mortgages (or at least none at anything like current rates) meaning the housing market collapses. Not declines, as we've been seeing, but actually collapses.

- The agencies are technically near insolvent (as in, assets less than liabilities, at market values) so they have to raise new capital, probably $10-20BN each. No equity investor has been willing to inject capital into either, due to the risk of being wiped out by a subsequent govt seizure (as indeed is happening).

- FNM and FRE combined have big debt maturities this year (I think $100s of BNs), and they must continually sell new debt or default on the maturing debt. Investors are rapidly losing their appetite for buying FMN or FRE debt. Foreign govts have become big net sellers of the debt. The agencies have been managing to sell debt to private investors only through desperate arrangements like swapping new debt for old debt (i.e. no net buying).

- Foreign govts, US and foreign banks, pension funds, mutual funds, all hold $ trillions of agency debt. If FNM or FRE default, that would likely drive numerous banks to insolvency, wipe out many retirement savings, cause money market funds to break the buck

, and - worst case - trigger a buyers' strike for US Treasuries.



So, this is a crisis and the govt is resorting to desperate measures. It is not BSC, it is 10X or 100X more of a crisis than BSC. And there is no private entity big enough to step up and do what JPM did with BSC. If the govt doesn't act, it is Great Depression, Act 2.





Obama wants it to fail ,that will teach them, let them rich folk sort it out it does not affect the welfare state.



McCain wants to prop it up and start transferring the power away from them this way middle america is not crushed.



Like I have said over and over, everyone is oblivious to how close to a depression we are. I am afraid Obama is going to ensure we go into one.

cancel nafta, tax imports and start forcing corporations that sell things in the us to produce things in the us just like the EU Nations



If you think either one is going to fix the economy you are way off, McCain's got less experience then Bush does when it comes to the economy.



Each US citizen owes $33,000 to the national debt, taking FNM and FRE over added effectively 50% more to the national debt, that's almost $50,000 per us citizen, tell me how we can pay this debt off if we continue to spread our US style democracy all over the wold? Tell me how we can pay off this debt without diluting the dollar.



OK obama is going to tax the **** out of you and McCain will mean rampant inflation, what's the difference? Inflation is a tax.



You want your cake and to eat it too, you want to reap the rewards of this great nation, but do nothing to keep it going. Who buys your goods, your services? Mexico? China? The reality is you made your wealth off of this great nation and it's in a mess of ****, maybe it's time to step up?



Move your company out of the US, it doesn't ******* matter, we build nothing here, our wealth is leaving the country faster then they made it, americans will have NO money to buy anything from anyone, so you can't tax them, you can't move your business to mexico and sell to the us, this is a false system, the money is made out of thin air from bonds sold to China and other foreign banks, they aren't going to buy our paper anymore.



You admit on one hand their will be a depression, then you say "business this, business that" it means nothing, you don't have business during a depression, no one has money, what money they do have is useless. The coin your tossing into the air isnt heads on both sides, depression means all these companies making crap in China have no nation to sell it too, depression means your friends moving out of the country will be making a product with no demand.



I'd call the people leaving this nation because it's time to rebuild it, through any means possible, the people leaving that have reaped the rewards of this nation traitors, traitors for taking everything and giving nothing back and I can't wait for those worthless fiat dollars they're hording in their foreign factory to be USELESS.



It's like running up your credit card and moving to mexico and expecting someone else to pay it for you.



What sickens me the most about this election is I actually see people supporting one of these two criminals, it's disgusting.

Its more of a who is going to hurt us less.



If Obama get in mark my words, in 2-3 years these will be considered the good ol days. That house your trying to sell will be worth 50-70K.



Change is not good, when the current moron was elected into office 4 years ago I said this nation would be in a slump before he got out of office. He had already done a good job screwing it up the 1st four years. I knew the next 4, without him needed to be re-elected would make the 1st 4 look good times.



Our national debt is huge I know that, how are we going to get out of it? I hope your patriotic enough to ride this storm out because if we are going to change this its going to take a good 10 years of really bad times to get back on top.



The problem is they are spending too much, too much on a stupid war with the wrong country, too much on "stimulus" checks, too much padding each other well before they high tail it out of there.



So which idiot is better? As demonstrated above one wants us all to go to hell with our "rich people" problems the other wants to try a gentle way to fix the problem. If you cannot comprehend that from above then yes, Obama is your man.



But if you see what I was getting at you realize that this all needs to be fixed gently, if it is not this country will topple. I am ready and I have no one to turn to for money when I get into a pinch, I have saved up a bunch, gotten rid of the toys and I am selling off the assets to all I need to get by each month is enough for utilities.



Meanwhile our country is #1!!



#1 in taxing corporations in the world and Obama wants to make the taxes higher.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa53...11/ai_n21385539





Yup we are dancing a fine line. Many companies are leaving because they cannot afford to do business in America anymore and turn a profit. Watch the mass exodus if Obama does what he wants to do.



Get ready for a LOT more of this as well as jobs dry up and companies leave.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,3121791.story

See you are approaching this conversation as if I am supporting Obama and you couldn't be further from the truth. That aside, I'm going to make the leap and assume you just missed my question.



These companies move out of the US, which is a mostly service related nation at this point, very little manufacturing... as they do we see even further job loss and as you've already admitted there is potential for another depression, no matter who gets in office. So on to my question, they move to let's say Mexico and the jobs dry up, who buys the goods? You see you've bent over a dollar to pick up a quarter, when the rest of them leave there's no one to buy their product their services.



Do you know anything about the first depression? Do you know what the "New Deal" did? Do you know how we arrived a financial crisis the first time? Do you know what is different from the first depression to economic hardships we face now?



Answer those questions and we'll talk, if you grasp on Wall Street is newspapers and tv stations then you my friend have no idea what is actually taking place right now, you're eating the apple pie they serve you and are convinced it's cherry because that's what they told you.