So this is our solution to the rising gas prices.

What, hijacking a gas truck? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/dunno.gif

[quote name='Baldy' date='Sep 6 2005, 07:19 AM']What, hijacking a gas truck? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/dunno.gif


[/quote]



No comment.

insurance fraud?

GIVE US YOUR JUICE AND YOU MAY LIVE!

With the gas shortage it's gonna be a Mad Max movie all over again https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

I have a surplus of 8 gallons left in my garage.

If that truck catches fire, you they actually think that extinguser will work?!?!

mmmm.. your car will run great with avgas



i know a guy who used only av gas in his bikes because they ran so much better.

Actually does...I have no cats and was tuned on 93...was pretty lumpy in the low RPM but now running a pure tank of AVgas its smooth as 94T's freshly shaved testicles against my lips.

HA!

[quote name='banzaitoyota' date='Sep 6 2005, 07:57 AM']insurance fraud?


[/quote]



Wal-Mart no longer has self checkout here. Which means Josh can no longer steal redbull. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 12:28 PM']Wal-Mart no longer has self checkout here. Which means Josh can no longer steal redbull. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif


[/quote]



Haha, Yes, I forgot...He was the center of conversation while we were standing in line lastnight. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif

[quote name='ApneaBlue' date='Sep 6 2005, 12:29 PM']Haha, Yes, I forgot...He was the center of conversation while we were standing in line lastnight. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif


[/quote]



Apnea: "so what about the people in New Orleans?"

Me: "well they are going crazy down there, having all sorts of problems"

Apnea: "they're all black aren't they?"

Me: "yeahhhhh"

Apnea: "figures"

Black dude behind us: "gives evil look"

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 12:32 PM']Apnea: "so what about the people in New Orleans?"

Me: "well they are going crazy down there, having all sorts of problems"

Apnea: "they're all black aren't they?"

Me: "yeahhhhh"

Apnea: "figures"

Black dude behind us: "gives evil look"


[/quote]





Oh yeah, my bad....."I" Was the center of converstaion....Said thay a little loud.



Actually I heard that they didn't know what to do with some people in jail so they just let them go...WTF? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.png

[quote name='boxrs4sale' date='Sep 6 2005, 03:43 PM']mmmm.. your car will run great with avgas



i know a guy who used only av gas in his bikes because they ran so much better.


[/quote]



Yea that lead is awesome for high compression engines.

what is av gas?

Aviation Fuel...101 Octoane Low Led content.

AV Gas is aviation Low-Lead Gasoline. Although low lead is a bit decieving in this case as it contains more lead then leaded auto gas did in the past. Some say its more pure, some say its dirtier, it does contain less degergents then auto gas, however the flash point is slightly different as the octane is measured differently in auto gas vs avgas, but the #'s are similar. Avgas is measured via some performance method above 100 octane.



Is Av-Gas ok to use in engines designed to run unleaded? That's arguable as well, the lead was added to prevent knocking and it's quite effective, it also does a good job at lubricating valves, guides, etc.. HOWEVER, it will ruin catalytic converters and place deposits on your 02 sensor and eventually **** it up.

thats what i thought. i hear that **** is amazing. how much is it?



thanks phins! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif

BTW in the US if you are caught using it you can get in a lot of trouble, we used to use the kerosean (jet fuel) in our diesel tugs which apparently the EPA doesn't like, the fine to our company was something like $30,000.

Varies across the small airports in town...

3.00, 3.20, and 3.28 per gallon depending on where you go.



Its great if you dont have cats and dont mind swapping out your O2 sensor periodically....How often should we swap them out tho? I guess once we start idling funky....Can you tell by visual inspection when the O2 sensor is fooked?



[quote name='phinsup' date='Sep 6 2005, 01:47 PM']BTW in the US if you are caught using it you can get in a lot of trouble, we used to use the kerosean (jet fuel) in our diesel tugs which apparently the EPA doesn't like, the fine to our company was something like $30,000.


[/quote]



True, you can't just fill up your car at the airport...have to tote it away in containers...If they ask what it's for, just say engine testing.

[quote name='ApneaBlue' date='Sep 6 2005, 05:48 PM']Varies across the small airports in town...

3.00, 3.20, and 3.28 per gallon depending on where you go.



Its great if you dont have cats and dont mind swapping out your O2 sensor periodically....How often should we swap them out tho? I guess once we start idling funky....Can you tell by visual inspection when the O2 sensor is fooked?


[/quote]



Yea there will be white deposits that almost look like a white solder on the o2 sensor.



I should also ad for anyone out there with a new car under warranty, if they notice this on your o2 sensor they can void your warranty.



And another thing, it's been argued pretty heavily in other countries that the additives they add to unleaded gasoline are just as harmful to the environment as the lead is/was.



I've also seen it foul spark plugs with the same type of deposits that are left on the cat, at the time I wasn't driving a rotary but I guess those deposits could be a little more troublesome to the apex seals.



However it rocks for 2 strokes, very nice for your lawnmower, weed wackers, etc, etc... that's usually what I used it in as I got a bit timid with taking it home after the company got hit with a fine for the jet A use.

[quote name='ApneaBlue' date='Sep 6 2005, 05:48 PM']True, you can't just fill up your car at the airport...have to tote it away in containers...If they ask what it's for, just say engine testing.


[/quote]



Yea going that route you won't have any issues, they aren't going to follow you home and see what you put it in. The responsibility in that case will probably fall on the gas station staff/owner/operator. Somewhat like filling a 2 quart milk bottle with gas, the cops won't bust you, but they will bust the gas station dude.



If you are a fuel jockey and you get caught using it in your car you could prolly get in trouble.

[quote name='phinsup' date='Sep 6 2005, 09:55 PM']However it rocks for 2 strokes, very nice for your lawnmower, weed wackers, etc, etc... that's usually what I used it in as I got a bit timid with taking it home after the company got hit with a fine for the jet A use.


[/quote]



Yeah I use VP C16 in my lawnmover, weedwacker, clainsaw and soon to try it out in my tiller and chipper when I get them in the next couple weeks. It also really works well in our pocket bikes https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

2.6 ml of lead per gallon, compared to 4ml per gallon of regular leaded fuel. Also has a bromide agent which gets rid of any deposits on spark plugs, ect... The lead is an anti-detonative material as well and is used in rotary airplanes with great success.

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 06:24 PM']2.6 ml of lead per gallon, compared to 4ml per gallon of regular leaded fuel. Also has a bromide agent which gets rid of any deposits on spark plugs, ect... The lead is an anti-detonative material as well and is used in rotary airplanes with great success.


[/quote]





I am not quite sure where you get that info, but 100 LL last I checked had about 2 grams per gallon.



This is the info I got from the EPA's website regarding auto gas.





By the time leaded gas was phased out avgas contained and still does today as far as I know more then 3 times the amount of lead as the leaded auto fuels.



Source of EPA info: http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/lead/03.htm

Also here are some interesting links you may want to read about fuels, av gas, hi performance fuels, etc...



http://members.shaw.ca/costall/1000Q...s-gasoline.htm



http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/autos...oline-faq/.html

I got my info from the advanced systems book for professional pilots.

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 08:11 PM']I got my info from the advanced systems book for professional pilots.


[/quote]





Hmm, well we always used to say pilots should stick to the cockpit and what's in front of them https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



I am sure the EPA is wrong then what do they know, anyhow what would I know I am just work on the fuckers I don't fly them.



BTW, all of my A&P books stated that Low Lead was about half of the old regular leaded and that was still more then double the auto gas lead content.

Allow me to correct myself. 4.6 and 2.0 ml per gallon.



"In order to get better anti detonation characteristics from a particular aviation fuel, tetraethyl lead, a heavy, oily poisonous liquid is added. Grade 100 is allowed to have as much as 4.6ml per gallon. Tetraethyl lead allows engines to develop more power without detonation, but using a fuel with a lead content higher than the engine is designed to accommodate leads to problems of spark plug lead fouling and sticking valves." "to accomodate the lower lead engines and at the same time have a fuel with an octane rating high enough for the high compression engines, the petroleum industry has brought out a fuel called grade 100ll. This low lead 100 octane fuel has a maximum of 2.0 ml lead per gallon" "the two milliliters of lead provide enough lubrication of parts requiring the lead, and at the same time its lead content is low enough that spark plug fouling and valve sticking is not a problem" "a scavenging agent, ethylene dibromide, is added to the fuel to combine with the lead oxide and form lead bromide"

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 06:24 PM']2.6 ml of lead per gallon, compared to 4ml per gallon of regular leaded fuel. Also has a bromide agent which gets rid of any deposits on spark plugs, ect... The lead is an anti-detonative material as well and is used in rotary airplanes with great success.


[/quote]



lead weighs 11.3 grams per ml so by your figures that would put something like 29.3 grams per gallon of LL???



The highest number i could find on a quick google search was 2 grams per gallon in Low Lead, 4 grams in the old 100 and .9 in auto gas.



I'd have to question 2.6 ml per gallon.

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 08:24 PM']Allow me to correct myself. 4.0 and 2.6 ml per gallon.



"In order to get better anti detonation characteristics from a particular aviation fuel, tetraethyl lead, a heavy, oily poisonous liquid is added. Grade 100 is allowed to have as much as 4.6ml per gallon. Tetraethyl lead allows engines to develop more power without detonation, but using a fuel with a lead content higher than the engine is designed to accommodate leads to problems of spark plug lead fouling and sticking valves." "to accomodate the lower lead engines and at the same time have a fuel with an octane rating high enough for the high compression engines, the petroleum industry has brought out a fuel called grade 100ll. This low lead 100 octane fuel has a maximum of 2.0 ml lead per gallon" "the two milliliters of lead provide enough lubrication of parts requiring the lead, and at the same time its lead content is low enough that spark plug fouling and valve sticking is not a problem" "a scavenging agent, ethylene dibromide, is added to the fuel to combine with the lead oxide and form lead bromide"


[/quote]



HA HA ok that's talking about the old grade 100, which was more then double the low lead. you aren't talking about avgas VS. auto gas, make sense?



Basically those numbers agree with my post above however I have never seen it measure in m/l per gallon. Reason being is ml is a metric measurement, gallon us. I'm guessing it means grams per gallon as that is the only way I have ever seen it measured. At that rate our numbers agree, however there is no comparison to auto gas.



That said, I have pulled the plugs on av motors and with old gas, for whatever reason they seem to leave the deposits on the plugs. Possible that the scavenging agents breakdown overtime or what I dunno, all I know is I've seen it several times and I've prolly had my head in a few more horizontally opposed av motors then you (no offense intended).

Here's a quick link supporting the numbers you posted however they are in grams not m/l



http://www.answers.com/topic/avgas



again this is just lowlead vs old school avgas

I was strictly talking about AV fuel. I threw in a comparison between old 100 av fuel and the new 100ll to give a little background. 100ll has 2.0 ml of lead per gallon while the old had 4.6ml. The new 100ll also has a bromide agent that further increase the break up of lead deposits.



9 times out of 10 you'll get fouled plugs by not leaning the mixture as you climb in altitude. Occasionally I'll have to run the motor up to clear the plugs before takeoff.

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 08:38 PM']I was strictly talking about AV fuel. I threw in a comparison between old 100 av fuel and the new 100ll to give a little background. 100ll has 2.0 ml of lead per gallon while the old had 4.6ml. The new 100ll also has a bromide agent that further increase the break up of lead deposits.



9 times out of 10 you'll get fouled plugs by not leaning the mixture as you climb in altitude. Occasionally I'll have to run the motor up to clear the plugs before takeoff.


[/quote]



You will get fouled plugs however you won't get "lead fouled" plugs. You will get a rich mixture foul which will look very dark, lead foul is white beads, almost looks like solder.



And yea I realized we were arguing the same thing, although i am pretty sure the m/l is not a correct measurement.



I had a lead fouling issue in a Bell whirly bird (helicopter) that I rebuilt the motor on (and had to ride in the thing). Anyhow, no matter what I did to timing it kept fouling them, ask an old timer and he says drain the gas. bam, never had an issue with it.

[quote name='phinsup' date='Sep 6 2005, 04:41 PM']You will get fouled plugs however you won't get "lead fouled" plugs. You will get a rich mixture foul which will look very dark, lead foul is white beads, almost looks like solder.



And yea I realized we were arguing the same thing, although i am pretty sure the m/l is not a correct measurement.




[/quote]



My point exactly, the plugs don't get fouled by the lead. Which is why its a wonderful thing to be running av gas in the car. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

[quote name='94touring' date='Sep 6 2005, 08:47 PM']My point exactly, the plugs don't get fouled by the lead. Which is why its a wonderful thing to be running av gas in the car. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png


[/quote]



Well that wasn't exactly what I was saying, i was saying that a rich fuel mixture foul is different then a lead foul, actually at rich fuel mixture, on take off as you mentioned would result in a very cool cylinder head temp, where as lead fouling takes place at very high temps, which would more likely come from a lean fuel mixture.

that is like the most well worded argument ever, 2 pts to you both. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif

[quote name='Edna' date='Sep 6 2005, 09:00 PM']that is like the most well worded argument ever, 2 pts to you both. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif


[/quote]



I went to school for 2 years to get my A&P (Aircraft and Powerlant) license, spent 3 years working on heavy's United, Southwest, America West, Continental, Northwest and Frontier to name a few, worked for BF Goodrich Aerospace we did major overhauls (C and D checks) and here and there on general, then got laid off and decided it wasn't what i wanted to do anymore.



Oh well at least I can ramble on about avgas https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png I however don't claim to be an expert on flying them!