Grocery Workers Strike
06-02-2004, 10:04 AM
#31
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Taxes and more Taxes - More is better ? - Not really if you look at wealth and morality
It is quite apparent that the Federal Government is corrupt - the $250 million sponsorship scandal is just one example of many [HRDC, Gun Registry, Corporate Welfare, Regional Programs, Kyoto…] of where government’s and their allies and paid supporters ride high off the public spending hog. If anyone needs to be reminded that big government IS the problem, then the current fracas involving the Chretien - Martin regime should be rather a poignant example of what is wrong in Canada.
Martin and his government are responsible as is Chretien and his minister’s for the wastage of taxpayer money on a variety of projects during the past 10 years. This is not only to blame the Liberals, Mulroney was hardly a paragon of honesty, spending reduction or tax reduction either. What then to do ?
First we should face the facts that government in Canada as Tony Clement recently stated is just too massive. According to Jack Mintz who is one of the foremost and eloquent critics of Canada’s high taxation regime - Government’s take 43 % of our GDP in taxes, transfers, user fees, resource royalties, deficit spending, crown corporation spending and municipal spending. This is crippling. Most economists state unequivocally that government transfers above 30 % of GDP hamper economic growth and wealth creation and actually on a marginal basis destroy more wealth then they create. This is especially relevant when you compare Canada " with no military system, little border controls and a woeful immigration system, free riding off the US " has 7 % more of GDP under government control than the US which has 35 % of GDP under government control.
Normalise for Canada’s free riding off the US military and we would " with normal military spend, border controls and security spend " have well over 46 % of our GDP under government control.
When your major trading partner and competitor has only about 35 % of its GDP under Government control the difference is staggering leading to wealth destruction in Canada and more perniciously a whole philosophy of self justification for WHY government must control so much of our economic and social affairs. This philosophy with no basis in historical empiricism or realistic assessment of reality is called Post Modernism. It is elitist, judicially biased and prone to historical revisionism. It is also morally and economically bankrupt.
Mintz in recent National Post articles has evinced some important points. We can list them here and summarise his observations:
Governments take $475 billion out of taxpayers each year or $15000 per capita.
In 1981 governments took only $10.000 per capita.
In 1981 Ottawa took $4.900 per capita and this has risen to $6.100 by 2002.
Provincial and municipal spending has increased by more than 65 % from $5.400 in 1981, to $8.900 in 2002 [inflation adjusted].
OCED reports for 2001 state that Canada’s revenue to GDP ratio is 42% catching up quickly with Germany [46%] and France [50 %]. Considering the deplorable state of EU affairs this is nothing to be proud of.
Governments elsewhere provide important social services at far lower costs.
The ageing of our population makes social service reform inevitable if we are to avoid bankruptcy.
High personal tax rates falling on middle class and lower income earners approach a marginal rate of 70 %.
A person whose salary is in the 30 % tax bracket, who earns 4 % on a GIC, with inflation at 2 % faces an effective tax rate of 60 %.
RRSP limits have not kept up with inflation and the limits are quite low. [only up to 18 % of earned income, forcing people to spend].
Dividend tax rate is higher than the capital gains rate, meaning that firms do not pay dividends and instead buy back their own shares.
· Corporate income taxes are the 5th highest in the world and force firms to locate offshore.
It is quite apparent that the Federal Government is corrupt - the $250 million sponsorship scandal is just one example of many [HRDC, Gun Registry, Corporate Welfare, Regional Programs, Kyoto…] of where government’s and their allies and paid supporters ride high off the public spending hog. If anyone needs to be reminded that big government IS the problem, then the current fracas involving the Chretien - Martin regime should be rather a poignant example of what is wrong in Canada.
Martin and his government are responsible as is Chretien and his minister’s for the wastage of taxpayer money on a variety of projects during the past 10 years. This is not only to blame the Liberals, Mulroney was hardly a paragon of honesty, spending reduction or tax reduction either. What then to do ?
First we should face the facts that government in Canada as Tony Clement recently stated is just too massive. According to Jack Mintz who is one of the foremost and eloquent critics of Canada’s high taxation regime - Government’s take 43 % of our GDP in taxes, transfers, user fees, resource royalties, deficit spending, crown corporation spending and municipal spending. This is crippling. Most economists state unequivocally that government transfers above 30 % of GDP hamper economic growth and wealth creation and actually on a marginal basis destroy more wealth then they create. This is especially relevant when you compare Canada " with no military system, little border controls and a woeful immigration system, free riding off the US " has 7 % more of GDP under government control than the US which has 35 % of GDP under government control.
Normalise for Canada’s free riding off the US military and we would " with normal military spend, border controls and security spend " have well over 46 % of our GDP under government control.
When your major trading partner and competitor has only about 35 % of its GDP under Government control the difference is staggering leading to wealth destruction in Canada and more perniciously a whole philosophy of self justification for WHY government must control so much of our economic and social affairs. This philosophy with no basis in historical empiricism or realistic assessment of reality is called Post Modernism. It is elitist, judicially biased and prone to historical revisionism. It is also morally and economically bankrupt.
Mintz in recent National Post articles has evinced some important points. We can list them here and summarise his observations:
Governments take $475 billion out of taxpayers each year or $15000 per capita.
In 1981 governments took only $10.000 per capita.
In 1981 Ottawa took $4.900 per capita and this has risen to $6.100 by 2002.
Provincial and municipal spending has increased by more than 65 % from $5.400 in 1981, to $8.900 in 2002 [inflation adjusted].
OCED reports for 2001 state that Canada’s revenue to GDP ratio is 42% catching up quickly with Germany [46%] and France [50 %]. Considering the deplorable state of EU affairs this is nothing to be proud of.
Governments elsewhere provide important social services at far lower costs.
The ageing of our population makes social service reform inevitable if we are to avoid bankruptcy.
High personal tax rates falling on middle class and lower income earners approach a marginal rate of 70 %.
A person whose salary is in the 30 % tax bracket, who earns 4 % on a GIC, with inflation at 2 % faces an effective tax rate of 60 %.
RRSP limits have not kept up with inflation and the limits are quite low. [only up to 18 % of earned income, forcing people to spend].
Dividend tax rate is higher than the capital gains rate, meaning that firms do not pay dividends and instead buy back their own shares.
· Corporate income taxes are the 5th highest in the world and force firms to locate offshore.
06-02-2004, 10:12 AM
#33
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Please don't take this as some anti-canadian campaign, it certainly is not, I was just trying to give some possibilities as to why jobs are leaving canada.
They are leaving the US at a comparable rate if not faster, tech jobs are being sent to India, local companies don't even have an IT dept in the US, it sucks. They let laborer's cross the US/Mexican borders at a staggering rate, you wanna pay close to nothing, rather then solving that issue, by forcing employers' to pay more, they let non-citizens take the no-to-low paying jobs. So don't take offense, I certainly wasn't hatin on CA, just providing some possible reasons as to why things are the way they are!
They are leaving the US at a comparable rate if not faster, tech jobs are being sent to India, local companies don't even have an IT dept in the US, it sucks. They let laborer's cross the US/Mexican borders at a staggering rate, you wanna pay close to nothing, rather then solving that issue, by forcing employers' to pay more, they let non-citizens take the no-to-low paying jobs. So don't take offense, I certainly wasn't hatin on CA, just providing some possible reasons as to why things are the way they are!
06-02-2004, 10:13 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by 75 Repu' date='Jun 2 2004, 08:10 AM
hahahhahahha.. hey man.. Money is money..
06-02-2004, 10:18 AM
#35
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mike is a Liar!
Posts: 4,848
I don't care about those pickets because in reality the way I see is that all those people bitchin had a choice, and they never got a good career.. now they are bitchin yet they are gettin paid well and just never seem to be happy.. I could make a tons more money than them.. but payin for my own benefits without a company plan woulde offset the gain in income.. they have it good but are greedy.. if they wanted a better life they should have made somethin of it..
that said it is not like that for all the employees involved.. it sucks *** that some lost cars houses and **** like that.. but hey.. their choice not mine.. I just survive in my own way.. no sides.. no cares..
that said it is not like that for all the employees involved.. it sucks *** that some lost cars houses and **** like that.. but hey.. their choice not mine.. I just survive in my own way.. no sides.. no cares..
06-02-2004, 10:22 AM
#36
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2,871
LOL
I am aware what taxes are taken from a paycheck in Canada! The comparison I saw was put together by Newsweek or someone like that, hopefully they would look into it a little. It was Mid-Clinton if I recall, so things may be different now.
As for $50K ($25/hr) being a poverty level, perhaps it is for those in some industries (software comes to mind) But in manufacturing or service industries it is not, unless you are in a big three factory. I don't know all that many factories here that pay that much, other than those in the auto workers unions. Mcdonalds managers DREAM about the day they could make that much.
It IS an incentive to factories to go there. If your low paid employees are taking home more money thanks to a lower personal income tax rate, you don't have to pay as much in the first place. If wages for doing the same job are also lower even when you don't account for taxes, this is obviously an incentive. Homes almost always cost less here. Fuel costs more, which is obviously a major decision unless your trucks are always running to the States anyway, so then you don't care.
I just looked at an old tax form of mine. Income was below $50000 for that year, and I paid 26% deductions. This covered everything, medical, full dental (including 50% of any purely cosmetic dental work), free eye glasses and testing, pay 5% of any perscription medications out of pocket, all federal and provincial income taxes, employment insurance, government pension plan contributions, the works.
The only additional taxes I would pay are sales tax (15% split between provincial and federal, not on food) and property tax if I owned my house (perhaps $200 per month for a decent house in this city)
As for corporate taxes, I have no idea. People here make a big deal out of it if the government offers tons of freebies to corporations. Pro-sports are a prime example, all over the US cities and states spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars to GIVE a team a stadium, no strings attached. Heads would roll down the streets if that happened here.
Like Banzai said, as soon as the incentives dry up, the factory is closed and gone. In automotive, everytime they come out with a new car, the factory is completely stripped to a bare shell and all the machinery is replaced. If you're doing that anyway, the cost of the building itself is not that important. If the next state over offeres you $15 million worth of tax breaks to move there, you're gone.
I am aware what taxes are taken from a paycheck in Canada! The comparison I saw was put together by Newsweek or someone like that, hopefully they would look into it a little. It was Mid-Clinton if I recall, so things may be different now.
As for $50K ($25/hr) being a poverty level, perhaps it is for those in some industries (software comes to mind) But in manufacturing or service industries it is not, unless you are in a big three factory. I don't know all that many factories here that pay that much, other than those in the auto workers unions. Mcdonalds managers DREAM about the day they could make that much.
It IS an incentive to factories to go there. If your low paid employees are taking home more money thanks to a lower personal income tax rate, you don't have to pay as much in the first place. If wages for doing the same job are also lower even when you don't account for taxes, this is obviously an incentive. Homes almost always cost less here. Fuel costs more, which is obviously a major decision unless your trucks are always running to the States anyway, so then you don't care.
I just looked at an old tax form of mine. Income was below $50000 for that year, and I paid 26% deductions. This covered everything, medical, full dental (including 50% of any purely cosmetic dental work), free eye glasses and testing, pay 5% of any perscription medications out of pocket, all federal and provincial income taxes, employment insurance, government pension plan contributions, the works.
The only additional taxes I would pay are sales tax (15% split between provincial and federal, not on food) and property tax if I owned my house (perhaps $200 per month for a decent house in this city)
As for corporate taxes, I have no idea. People here make a big deal out of it if the government offers tons of freebies to corporations. Pro-sports are a prime example, all over the US cities and states spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars to GIVE a team a stadium, no strings attached. Heads would roll down the streets if that happened here.
Like Banzai said, as soon as the incentives dry up, the factory is closed and gone. In automotive, everytime they come out with a new car, the factory is completely stripped to a bare shell and all the machinery is replaced. If you're doing that anyway, the cost of the building itself is not that important. If the next state over offeres you $15 million worth of tax breaks to move there, you're gone.
06-02-2004, 10:24 AM
#37
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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No-one is forcing those unionized workers to hold a union JOB. It boils down to the fact that they (workers) want something for nothing. This is a FREE country. Why should some UNION BIGWIG dictate to me how I spend my money?
If I want to shop somewhere I have a freedom to walk into the store without being harassed by picketeers, who are sometimes just hired help to picket. Look at the PUBLIX strike back in the 90's; the union could not musteer enough support in its own ranks to make an effective pickett line, so they hired temps to wave their placards.
If a man cant negoitiate a salary he is happy with, he needs to go elsewhere to work.
If I want to shop somewhere I have a freedom to walk into the store without being harassed by picketeers, who are sometimes just hired help to picket. Look at the PUBLIX strike back in the 90's; the union could not musteer enough support in its own ranks to make an effective pickett line, so they hired temps to wave their placards.
If a man cant negoitiate a salary he is happy with, he needs to go elsewhere to work.
06-02-2004, 10:35 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by TYSON' date='Jun 2 2004, 08:22 AM
LOL
I am aware what taxes are taken from a paycheck in Canada! The comparison I saw was put together by Newsweek or someone like that, hopefully they would look into it a little. It was Mid-Clinton if I recall, so things may be different now.
As for $50K ($25/hr) being a poverty level, perhaps it is for those in some industries (software comes to mind) But in manufacturing or service industries it is not, unless you are in a big three factory. I don't know all that many factories here that pay that much, other than those in the auto workers unions. Mcdonalds managers DREAM about the day they could make that much.
It IS an incentive to factories to go there. If your low paid employees are taking home more money thanks to a lower personal income tax rate, you don't have to pay as much in the first place. If wages for doing the same job are also lower even when you don't account for taxes, this is obviously an incentive. Homes almost always cost less here. Fuel costs more, which is obviously a major decision unless your trucks are always running to the States anyway, so then you don't care.
I just looked at an old tax form of mine. Income was below $50000 for that year, and I paid 26% deductions. This covered everything, medical, full dental (including 50% of any purely cosmetic dental work), free eye glasses and testing, pay 5% of any perscription medications out of pocket, all federal and provincial income taxes, employment insurance, government pension plan contributions, the works.
The only additional taxes I would pay are sales tax (15% split between provincial and federal, not on food) and property tax if I owned my house (perhaps $200 per month for a decent house in this city)
As for corporate taxes, I have no idea. People here make a big deal out of it if the government offers tons of freebies to corporations. Pro-sports are a prime example, all over the US cities and states spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars to GIVE a team a stadium, no strings attached. Heads would roll down the streets if that happened here.
Like Banzai said, as soon as the incentives dry up, the factory is closed and gone. In automotive, everytime they come out with a new car, the factory is completely stripped to a bare shell and all the machinery is replaced. If you're doing that anyway, the cost of the building itself is not that important. If the next state over offeres you $15 million worth of tax breaks to move there, you're gone.
I am aware what taxes are taken from a paycheck in Canada! The comparison I saw was put together by Newsweek or someone like that, hopefully they would look into it a little. It was Mid-Clinton if I recall, so things may be different now.
As for $50K ($25/hr) being a poverty level, perhaps it is for those in some industries (software comes to mind) But in manufacturing or service industries it is not, unless you are in a big three factory. I don't know all that many factories here that pay that much, other than those in the auto workers unions. Mcdonalds managers DREAM about the day they could make that much.
It IS an incentive to factories to go there. If your low paid employees are taking home more money thanks to a lower personal income tax rate, you don't have to pay as much in the first place. If wages for doing the same job are also lower even when you don't account for taxes, this is obviously an incentive. Homes almost always cost less here. Fuel costs more, which is obviously a major decision unless your trucks are always running to the States anyway, so then you don't care.
I just looked at an old tax form of mine. Income was below $50000 for that year, and I paid 26% deductions. This covered everything, medical, full dental (including 50% of any purely cosmetic dental work), free eye glasses and testing, pay 5% of any perscription medications out of pocket, all federal and provincial income taxes, employment insurance, government pension plan contributions, the works.
The only additional taxes I would pay are sales tax (15% split between provincial and federal, not on food) and property tax if I owned my house (perhaps $200 per month for a decent house in this city)
As for corporate taxes, I have no idea. People here make a big deal out of it if the government offers tons of freebies to corporations. Pro-sports are a prime example, all over the US cities and states spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars to GIVE a team a stadium, no strings attached. Heads would roll down the streets if that happened here.
Like Banzai said, as soon as the incentives dry up, the factory is closed and gone. In automotive, everytime they come out with a new car, the factory is completely stripped to a bare shell and all the machinery is replaced. If you're doing that anyway, the cost of the building itself is not that important. If the next state over offeres you $15 million worth of tax breaks to move there, you're gone.
The highest sales tax I know of in the us is 9% and it's similar it does not tax food, this again would have to be taken into account when calculating the "effective" tax rate. I dunno where the newsweek article is but from a few seconds of research it's pretty clear that business taxes are similar between the two countries however person income taxes are not, from what you have said from your own taxes and what tax rates you can grab right off of irs.gov website, rough shotting some sales tax, Canada's effective tax rate is SIGNIFICANTLY higher then the US effective tax rate. Granted that does no include healthcare, but hell weren't you guys bragging about "free" healthcare a few weeks ago??? So if it's free we can't really deduct it from your effective tax rate now can we? I can buy and do pay for my own health insurance and it doesn't factor out to be in the 11% to 16% of my income, I'd say you guys are either getting fucked on your "free" healthcare or are paying a shitload more in taxes then we are, look at it however you want, at the end of the day Americans pay less in taxes then Canadians.
06-02-2004, 10:36 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by TYSON' date='Jun 2 2004, 08:22 AM
As for corporate taxes, I have no idea. People here make a big deal out of it if the government offers tons of freebies to corporations. Pro-sports are a prime example, all over the US cities and states spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars to GIVE a team a stadium, no strings attached. Heads would roll down the streets if that happened here.
06-02-2004, 10:39 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by banzaitoyota' date='Jun 2 2004, 08:24 AM
No-one is forcing those unionized workers to hold a union JOB. It boils down to the fact that they (workers) want something for nothing. This is a FREE country. Why should some UNION BIGWIG dictate to me how I spend my money?
If I want to shop somewhere I have a freedom to walk into the store without being harassed by picketeers, who are sometimes just hired help to picket. Look at the PUBLIX strike back in the 90's; the union could not musteer enough support in its own ranks to make an effective pickett line, so they hired temps to wave their placards.
If a man cant negoitiate a salary he is happy with, he needs to go elsewhere to work.
If I want to shop somewhere I have a freedom to walk into the store without being harassed by picketeers, who are sometimes just hired help to picket. Look at the PUBLIX strike back in the 90's; the union could not musteer enough support in its own ranks to make an effective pickett line, so they hired temps to wave their placards.
If a man cant negoitiate a salary he is happy with, he needs to go elsewhere to work.
like I said before I don't really agree with unions, but I do think that these guys deserve at least what they already have.