Rz/rs Front And Rear Big Brake Gb - 2 Piece Rotors
08-21-2003, 02:39 AM
#11
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 49
Sorry - need to confirm one last detail with Precision before posting prices. Make a long story short, the guy I was working with there left the company, and I have to reconfirm each detail with their GM - and one skipped my mind. I've jumped the gun a number of times posting details on the RX7 Club, and not going to make the mistake again. Expect later today (Thursday). Thanks!
08-22-2003, 03:51 AM
#12
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 49
OK, here are the prices on the custom 2 piece rotors - deduct $5 per rotor with you need them plain (not slotted or drilled).
Target will be 10 pieces front (5 pairs) and 10 pieces rear (5 pairs). They will work with us if we're short a pair or two, but I don't think it will be a problem.
These are custom-machined, 2-piece rotors like you would find on most custom big brake kits, but made to fit the RZ/RS spec calipers. Rotors are directional vane, and are stress relieved and balanced. The hats are custom machined aluminum that are similar in appearance to the AP brake hats available from N-Tech. The hardware is SAE socket head cap screws (Allen bolts) (which are zinc plated) with stainless steel AN flat washers. The hats are purpose built for the application and are hub centric without the need for adapters.
Some nice things they've thrown in, as NO COST OPTIONS: plating of the rotors (to prevent unsightly rust on the non-swept rotor area) and you choice of black, blue, or red hat colors.
Working on trying to get us a bit more off the calipers, hang tight for those prices. Basically though - you can expect to get a front AND rear big brake solution (all four 2 piece rotors and OE spec RZ/RS calipers) for LESS then the cost of a N-Tech AP front big brake kit.
I go into more detail tomorrow on application, specs, etc.
REAR
10 PIECES
Slotted 227.58/rotor
Cross drilled 275.58/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 271.58/rotor
20 PIECES
Slotted 205.52/rotor
Cross drilled 275.58/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 247.32/rotor
40 PIECES
Slotted 186.78/rotor
Cross drilled 230.10/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 226.49/rotor
Cost breakdown for J-Spec 2 piece RX7 rotors:
FRONT
10 PIECES
Slotted 268.60/rotor
Cross drilled 316.60/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 312.60/rotor
20 PIECES
Slotted 246.66/rotor
Cross drilled 292.26/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 288.46/rotor
40 PIECES
Slotted 225.11/rotor
Cross drilled 268.43/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 264.82/rotor
Target will be 10 pieces front (5 pairs) and 10 pieces rear (5 pairs). They will work with us if we're short a pair or two, but I don't think it will be a problem.
These are custom-machined, 2-piece rotors like you would find on most custom big brake kits, but made to fit the RZ/RS spec calipers. Rotors are directional vane, and are stress relieved and balanced. The hats are custom machined aluminum that are similar in appearance to the AP brake hats available from N-Tech. The hardware is SAE socket head cap screws (Allen bolts) (which are zinc plated) with stainless steel AN flat washers. The hats are purpose built for the application and are hub centric without the need for adapters.
Some nice things they've thrown in, as NO COST OPTIONS: plating of the rotors (to prevent unsightly rust on the non-swept rotor area) and you choice of black, blue, or red hat colors.
Working on trying to get us a bit more off the calipers, hang tight for those prices. Basically though - you can expect to get a front AND rear big brake solution (all four 2 piece rotors and OE spec RZ/RS calipers) for LESS then the cost of a N-Tech AP front big brake kit.
I go into more detail tomorrow on application, specs, etc.
REAR
10 PIECES
Slotted 227.58/rotor
Cross drilled 275.58/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 271.58/rotor
20 PIECES
Slotted 205.52/rotor
Cross drilled 275.58/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 247.32/rotor
40 PIECES
Slotted 186.78/rotor
Cross drilled 230.10/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 226.49/rotor
Cost breakdown for J-Spec 2 piece RX7 rotors:
FRONT
10 PIECES
Slotted 268.60/rotor
Cross drilled 316.60/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 312.60/rotor
20 PIECES
Slotted 246.66/rotor
Cross drilled 292.26/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 288.46/rotor
40 PIECES
Slotted 225.11/rotor
Cross drilled 268.43/rotor
Slotted and Cross drilled 264.82/rotor
08-23-2003, 09:18 AM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bayarea, CA
Posts: 1,009
For people who are looking for cheaper rotors, I can offer you guys the 99 spec bracke rotors at the following prices:
Front: $160 each
Back: $150 each.
Hope the cheaper rotors can help out the group buy.
Chuck Huang
Front: $160 each
Back: $150 each.
Hope the cheaper rotors can help out the group buy.
Chuck Huang
08-24-2003, 01:01 AM
#18
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 49
Ok, going into to detail regarding this brake solution. There is a ALOT of options and considerations (some of which has been mentioned, but I'll go over again), so read carefully. 
Brief history:
As everyone knows, the FD brakes are pretty good for an OE job - but for track work, people have looked for other solutions (in the form of various big brake kits) for even more capability. Mazda appeared to agree that the FD could use a little more 'whoa', and in 1999 (in the Japanese market of course, since no longer sold anywhere else), they upgraded some models of the FD (RS and RZ)with larger, more effective brakes - front and rear. There is also the Spirit R brakes that came later, but the best that we can tell is that it is the same specs as the RS/RZ - but painted calipers and drilled rotors, and a much higher price tag according to Jimlab (other forum). If it's too expensive for Jim, it's too expensive for me.
Previous solutions:
Meanwhiles, those with the OE smaller brakes turned to front big brake kits from various companies like M2 and N-Tech. Besides the heavy price tag for almost all of the kits, they ended up with front brake bias. It's correctable of course with a proportioning valve and other tricks, but in the end, one would still have a more capable brake set up front compared to the rear. And nobody makes a large brake kit for the rear, and certainly not with shiny aluminum hats or replaceable, directional vane rotors like found in the aftermarket kits.
The only thing that has come close so far is the Widefoot bracket developed by David Breslau, Brad Barber and others to allow Wilwood NDL calipers to work with the '99 spec rotors. The drawback? You lose the parking/e-brake. David has under consideration doing the braket to include a mechanical spot caliper to retain the parking/e-brake funtion, but no word as to when it will be available. Pics and an excellent write up of the Widefoot racing solution is on Max Cooper's page:
http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/brakes...rear/index.html
Summary of problems:
- No rear big brake kit (other then the Widefoot Racing bracket) to balance out a front big brake kit available. Widefoot Racing NDL solution loses parking/e-brake function, and only rotor available at this time to use with it is the cast, single piece, straight vane rotor
- No really affordable front big brake kit that keeps OE quality and maintenance. The only thing that comes close to this price is the M2 Wilwood kit, but the Wilwood calipers do not have dust seals - requiring you to rebuild more often. A Wilwood represenative advises a brake caliper rebuild every year or so, depending on usage. The one year interval is recommended for someone attending several track events a year. www.wilwood.com .
There is also the Mandeville front brake 'kit', but this comprises of paring larger 2-piece rotors with modified 93-95 spec calipers. I do not know what Roger's current pricing is, but I expect it to be higher then what is listed on Rob Robinette's archive - based on our discusion when I was originally looking into this. FYI, Roger's quote was a starting price of $800 for a pair of custom 2-piece rotors like the ones quoted by Precision, and the reason why we are going with the Precision solution. (BTW, I want to say that Roger is the NICEST guy in the RX7 community, and his prices reflected his time - or lack of it. He's in demand (as a race care builder and consultant), and his prices reflects this. Hats off to one of the legends in the Rotary community.
http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/bigbrake.htm
The solution:
Afordable, better performing larger brakes with custom 2-piece rotors that maintain OE quality and maintenance.
Thanks for the quote on the single piece OE cast iron rotors, Chuck! If one is really scraping pennies and/or plan on light track usage, Manny (SleepR1 on the other forum) can attest that the OE cast iron rotors are a good thing, and certainly better then the '93-95 cast iron rotors.
But I tend to want better, and for a little more - there will now be an affordable 2-piece rotor for the rear (and front) as well. So what makes a (good) 2-piece rotor better then the OE single peice rotor?
- Custom CNC machined aluminum hat. As like pretty much other 2-piece rotors, the Precision rotors will consist of a custom machined aluminum hat for less weight. I do not a picture of the exact design at the moment, but it will look like the traditional hats with a flange available in other kits. I specifically had them do this so that it would match better aesthetically for those that have a front big brake kit.
Not only does the aluminum hat contribute to lower unsprung weight, but also lower rotational weight as well. Lower unsprung weight helps contribute to faster suspension response to road irregularities, which results in better handling and a more comfortable ride. Lower rotational weight results in better performance, both in accerlation and deceleration.
And it just looks cool behind the spokes of your wheels! Red, blue or black is a no cost option in this buy, that Precision normally charges for.
- Directional vane rotor of the custom rotor, vs. the straight vane of the OE rotor. Much better cooling of the rotor
Directional vane (curved in this illustration, need to confirm if ours will be so as well. Ours will be directional irregardless)
Straight vane, which the OE is
Here is an example of Precision brakes custom 2 piece rotors. Note that ours will have a more traditional look - 'hat' with a flange
The RS/RZ spec OE single cast rotors look basically like the one on your car now, except larger in diameter of course.
The calipers
These will be brand new, factory Mazda RZ/RS spec calipers. They are essentially identical in specs to what we have now, except that the offer a painless way to use the larger rotors. Because they are factory, they will fit like factory parts. Other then the labor to install these, there will not be any custom fabrication or general frustation that sometimes accompanies fitting aftermarket parts. And it retains the parking/emergancy brake as well, for those that want it.
Why this GB is good
- Offers a complete front AND rear big brake solution that is less then some of just the front big brake kits of others out there
- Flexibility - need just one passenger side front rotor? You can be part of this buy. Don't know what you are going to do with just one, but we'll take you in anyways hehe. The point is though - you can order everything ala carte, based on what your need is. (still working on the calipers though, and the caliper *might* need to be order in pairs - but I don't think so. Details soon)
Need just an affordable, factory quality brake solution that looks nice? Get just the front calipers and the rotors. Have an AP front big brake kit already, and need just the rears to balance it out? Order just the rear parts. And if you've got nothing right now - order the whole set!
Some considerations before joining
If you have the stock 16" wheels, the front RS/RZ spec calipers will not fit as is. The rear is fine and should not be a problem. However, I am looking into whether the use of a 5 or 10 mm spacer will allow you to use the front RZ/RS caliper with the stock 16" wheel.
While the RZ/RS caliper does sit a bit closer to the inside diameter of the wheel, there's plenty of room, and it's my understanding that the majority of the fitment issues come from the wider width of the calipers (to clear the wider front rotor). The issue here appears to be 'pad height' - or how much clearance is available between the spokes and the caliper itself, in a lateral direction.
I may need to just order the front myself now and test fit - unless there is someone with it installed already that can do a bit of measuring for me.
Spacers are available from H&R for about $50+, and will require longer studs pressed in as well. http://www.hrsprings.com/site/frameproducts.html More on this as I do the research.
Specs
93-98 FD brake rotors are sizes:
front - 11.6" diameter, .87" thick
rear - 11.6" diameter, .79" thick
'99 RS/RZ spec is:
front - 12.36" diameter, 1.25" thick
rear - 12.36" daimeter, .79" thick
Custom 2 piece Precision brake rotors
- Directional vane rotors, RZ/RS spec direct replacement - stress relieved and balanced. Plating to prevent rust on unswept areas on cost option
- Custom CNC machined aluminum hats
- Hardware is SAE socket head cap screws (Allen bolts) (which are zinc plated) with stainless steel AN flat washers
-------------------------
Ok, that's it for tonight. I have more I want to talk about the rotors tomorrow, but the above reading should cramp some brains tonight. Post your questions, and I'll answer them as best as I can.
GB to start by the end of the week. I still have to talk to Jason/RX7 store, but he's been closed for the last 4 days or so. I'll call him Monday.
----------------------
Special thanks goes out to Rotary Extreme and Jason/JT Imports. Thanks for your input - both of you could have just blown me off over what is obviously a low profit item, but you guys took the time to help me. I appreciate it.
People - buy stuff from them.
OK - bed time. Goodnight.
Brief history:
As everyone knows, the FD brakes are pretty good for an OE job - but for track work, people have looked for other solutions (in the form of various big brake kits) for even more capability. Mazda appeared to agree that the FD could use a little more 'whoa', and in 1999 (in the Japanese market of course, since no longer sold anywhere else), they upgraded some models of the FD (RS and RZ)with larger, more effective brakes - front and rear. There is also the Spirit R brakes that came later, but the best that we can tell is that it is the same specs as the RS/RZ - but painted calipers and drilled rotors, and a much higher price tag according to Jimlab (other forum). If it's too expensive for Jim, it's too expensive for me.
Previous solutions:
Meanwhiles, those with the OE smaller brakes turned to front big brake kits from various companies like M2 and N-Tech. Besides the heavy price tag for almost all of the kits, they ended up with front brake bias. It's correctable of course with a proportioning valve and other tricks, but in the end, one would still have a more capable brake set up front compared to the rear. And nobody makes a large brake kit for the rear, and certainly not with shiny aluminum hats or replaceable, directional vane rotors like found in the aftermarket kits.
The only thing that has come close so far is the Widefoot bracket developed by David Breslau, Brad Barber and others to allow Wilwood NDL calipers to work with the '99 spec rotors. The drawback? You lose the parking/e-brake. David has under consideration doing the braket to include a mechanical spot caliper to retain the parking/e-brake funtion, but no word as to when it will be available. Pics and an excellent write up of the Widefoot racing solution is on Max Cooper's page:
http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/brakes...rear/index.html
Summary of problems:
- No rear big brake kit (other then the Widefoot Racing bracket) to balance out a front big brake kit available. Widefoot Racing NDL solution loses parking/e-brake function, and only rotor available at this time to use with it is the cast, single piece, straight vane rotor
- No really affordable front big brake kit that keeps OE quality and maintenance. The only thing that comes close to this price is the M2 Wilwood kit, but the Wilwood calipers do not have dust seals - requiring you to rebuild more often. A Wilwood represenative advises a brake caliper rebuild every year or so, depending on usage. The one year interval is recommended for someone attending several track events a year. www.wilwood.com .
There is also the Mandeville front brake 'kit', but this comprises of paring larger 2-piece rotors with modified 93-95 spec calipers. I do not know what Roger's current pricing is, but I expect it to be higher then what is listed on Rob Robinette's archive - based on our discusion when I was originally looking into this. FYI, Roger's quote was a starting price of $800 for a pair of custom 2-piece rotors like the ones quoted by Precision, and the reason why we are going with the Precision solution. (BTW, I want to say that Roger is the NICEST guy in the RX7 community, and his prices reflected his time - or lack of it. He's in demand (as a race care builder and consultant), and his prices reflects this. Hats off to one of the legends in the Rotary community.
http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/bigbrake.htm
The solution:
Afordable, better performing larger brakes with custom 2-piece rotors that maintain OE quality and maintenance.
Thanks for the quote on the single piece OE cast iron rotors, Chuck! If one is really scraping pennies and/or plan on light track usage, Manny (SleepR1 on the other forum) can attest that the OE cast iron rotors are a good thing, and certainly better then the '93-95 cast iron rotors.
But I tend to want better, and for a little more - there will now be an affordable 2-piece rotor for the rear (and front) as well. So what makes a (good) 2-piece rotor better then the OE single peice rotor?
- Custom CNC machined aluminum hat. As like pretty much other 2-piece rotors, the Precision rotors will consist of a custom machined aluminum hat for less weight. I do not a picture of the exact design at the moment, but it will look like the traditional hats with a flange available in other kits. I specifically had them do this so that it would match better aesthetically for those that have a front big brake kit.
Not only does the aluminum hat contribute to lower unsprung weight, but also lower rotational weight as well. Lower unsprung weight helps contribute to faster suspension response to road irregularities, which results in better handling and a more comfortable ride. Lower rotational weight results in better performance, both in accerlation and deceleration.
And it just looks cool behind the spokes of your wheels! Red, blue or black is a no cost option in this buy, that Precision normally charges for.
- Directional vane rotor of the custom rotor, vs. the straight vane of the OE rotor. Much better cooling of the rotor
Directional vane (curved in this illustration, need to confirm if ours will be so as well. Ours will be directional irregardless)
Straight vane, which the OE is
Here is an example of Precision brakes custom 2 piece rotors. Note that ours will have a more traditional look - 'hat' with a flange
The RS/RZ spec OE single cast rotors look basically like the one on your car now, except larger in diameter of course.
The calipers
These will be brand new, factory Mazda RZ/RS spec calipers. They are essentially identical in specs to what we have now, except that the offer a painless way to use the larger rotors. Because they are factory, they will fit like factory parts. Other then the labor to install these, there will not be any custom fabrication or general frustation that sometimes accompanies fitting aftermarket parts. And it retains the parking/emergancy brake as well, for those that want it.
Why this GB is good
- Offers a complete front AND rear big brake solution that is less then some of just the front big brake kits of others out there
- Flexibility - need just one passenger side front rotor? You can be part of this buy. Don't know what you are going to do with just one, but we'll take you in anyways hehe. The point is though - you can order everything ala carte, based on what your need is. (still working on the calipers though, and the caliper *might* need to be order in pairs - but I don't think so. Details soon)
Need just an affordable, factory quality brake solution that looks nice? Get just the front calipers and the rotors. Have an AP front big brake kit already, and need just the rears to balance it out? Order just the rear parts. And if you've got nothing right now - order the whole set!
Some considerations before joining
If you have the stock 16" wheels, the front RS/RZ spec calipers will not fit as is. The rear is fine and should not be a problem. However, I am looking into whether the use of a 5 or 10 mm spacer will allow you to use the front RZ/RS caliper with the stock 16" wheel.
While the RZ/RS caliper does sit a bit closer to the inside diameter of the wheel, there's plenty of room, and it's my understanding that the majority of the fitment issues come from the wider width of the calipers (to clear the wider front rotor). The issue here appears to be 'pad height' - or how much clearance is available between the spokes and the caliper itself, in a lateral direction.
I may need to just order the front myself now and test fit - unless there is someone with it installed already that can do a bit of measuring for me.
Spacers are available from H&R for about $50+, and will require longer studs pressed in as well. http://www.hrsprings.com/site/frameproducts.html More on this as I do the research.
Specs
93-98 FD brake rotors are sizes:
front - 11.6" diameter, .87" thick
rear - 11.6" diameter, .79" thick
'99 RS/RZ spec is:
front - 12.36" diameter, 1.25" thick
rear - 12.36" daimeter, .79" thick
Custom 2 piece Precision brake rotors
- Directional vane rotors, RZ/RS spec direct replacement - stress relieved and balanced. Plating to prevent rust on unswept areas on cost option
- Custom CNC machined aluminum hats
- Hardware is SAE socket head cap screws (Allen bolts) (which are zinc plated) with stainless steel AN flat washers
-------------------------
Ok, that's it for tonight. I have more I want to talk about the rotors tomorrow, but the above reading should cramp some brains tonight. Post your questions, and I'll answer them as best as I can.
GB to start by the end of the week. I still have to talk to Jason/RX7 store, but he's been closed for the last 4 days or so. I'll call him Monday.
----------------------
Special thanks goes out to Rotary Extreme and Jason/JT Imports. Thanks for your input - both of you could have just blown me off over what is obviously a low profit item, but you guys took the time to help me. I appreciate it.
People - buy stuff from them.
OK - bed time. Goodnight.
08-26-2003, 07:19 PM
#20
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 49
Yes, hang tight - prices for the calipers are finalized. Need to get final approval from nopistons before posting, don't want to step on any toes. I'll talk more about the rotors tonight, but it's mostly just FYI - technical stuff.