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Cryo Systems Compared

Old 11-30-2003, 02:48 PM
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Ok, sorry guys i've been gone for a WHILE running around the country,

but I am MOST happy to return to the world with some stuff to offer.





Working on seting up a group buy for a company called Cryofuzion.



1st of all. there are 2 main companies that sell the "cryo" products.

the first is the one which has been brought up called Cryo2 or DEI

SITE THAT SELLS DEI CRYO2 STUFF



AND CRYOFUZION CRYOFUZION HOMEPAGE



I was first introduced to both these systems this summer at the

Carlisle, PA show. I talked to both companies about their products and

here is a summary of each of their products, and my own personal

engineering input. This isn't a sales pitch, this is my opinion and my

summary of whats out there.





DEI Cryo2 and Cryofuzion both have mutliple product

solutions to "chill" either the air and/or fuel portions of our

engine. Both companies "cryo" products use CO2 to remove heat.





DEI Product Summary: The Egg: is a spherical "egg" which is inserted

in the intake ducting near the Throttlebody. it is used for chilling

the intake air charge, they are getting ~35 degree intake temperature

drops.



The I/C Sprayer: Similar to a Nitrous Express Intercooler sprayer, it

is a coil with vent holes that is directly mounted to the front of the

I/C to help in heat removal. Not sure as to what the actual numbers

are for temp drops. Much less the detrament to spraying CO2 into the

engine bay (evacuating most of the much needed oxygen in the engine

bay, including near the airbox). See the actual Dyno proven affects

here: I/C SPRAY-BAR DYNO RESULTS



The summary is when using a "Spray Bar" you loose roughly ~5-7hp (from

waht I can see on the dyno graph) just from the introduction of CO2

into the engine bay.



Spraying Nitrous into over the I/C will allow un-metered nitrous into

your engine, giving you uncontrolled and unpredictable results of

leaning out your engine. Das bad man.



The Fuel Block: Pretty simple method of chilling the fuel. It has 2

sets of holes drilled lengthwise (forming channels) through the entire

aluminum block, one channel is for fuel, the other is for CO2. Pretty

simple, run CO2 thru it, and heat is removed from the fuel. No sure as

to what the acutual numbers are for fuel temp drops, and if it

actually affects HP/Torque in a measureable way.









Cryofuzion



Ok, now these stuff is way cool, and way safer than Nitrous on a

motor, and CHEAPER!!!



What an "Interfreezer" looks like:







Interfreezer: This is similar in principle to the beloved Aquamist

systems, lower the temperature of the intake charge. They just go at

it in a different manner. Aquamist systems are getting ~30 degrees F

intake temperature drops from injecting IPA mixed with H2O.

Cryofuzion

is using a CO2 2-chamber liquid to air heat exchanger, and getting

between 100 <-> 150 degrees F intake temperature drop.



They offer 3", 4", 6", 8", 10" (internal pipe diameter equivalent of the honeycomb) interfreezers.

So flow is not an issue. (I will be getting actual flow-bench CFM #'s mid week)



Picture of a VERY VERY VERY cold intake:







Ok, so point 1, significanly lower intake temperatures. Mind you, the

CO2 is kept COMPLETELY isolated from the intake air, it never mixes

with the air/fuel charge.





What a "Flow Enducer" Looks like:







Flow Enducer: Now we all are trying to improve 2 basic systems on our

cars:



1) suck in more air 2) get rid of more exhuast quicker



So, they user their aerodynamic-brains to create this guy. [Technical

blurb] Taking a cross-section of a standard wing-profile you will find

that the point of lowest pressure is the trailing edge (pointy end).



They took this knowledge and exploited it. Since we have ~800psi of

CO2 gas pressure running through the interfreezer sucking out heat,

there is still all of the leftover gas that has to be disposed of.

Instead of just venting it to the atmosphere they did something cool

with it, and used it in conjunction with their Flow-Enducer. By

venting the CO2 gas out the trailing edge of the Flow-Enducer it

creates a large low-pressure area, essentially a vacuum. It is welded

in your exhuast pipe, towards the end about 12-18' from the exhuast

tip.





So, the nuts and bolts of it. It sucks your exhuast gas out.



Cool huh? How about that for exhuast flow!!!! When its on, its taking

backpessure and making it non-existant.



I thought so. When I saw it at carlisle this summer it totally

captivated me and I was quite impressed.



Bottom Line: What does it get me? Well, all their numbers are from

Dyno-proven results, not estimates. With naturally aspirated motors

they are gettin ~7%-9% horsepower and torque gains. On a forced

induction motor they are achieving ~12%-20% horsepower and torque

gains
. Note these are at the wheel numbers, not crank power gains.



So on a motor that is running 200hp that is a gain of 30hp to 230hp

(assuming a 15% gain). And the other really cool thing is, the warmer and

higher the humidity is, the better this system works.





This is a "shot-basis" system like Nitrous, except that you can run it

through any throttle range and have it triggered by throttle position

or my thumb switch. But an average shot to "freeze" your intake cooler

is T<10 seconds, and then however long you have it on for your "run".

With an average shot length of 10 seconds, and an expected tank usage

life of ~2mins, that is around 12 runs. Now remember, that is with a

10lb bottle, and they sell 15lb, and 20lb (which is what I will be

getting).



The other advantage of CO2 over Nitrous is cost, $4.25/lb by me, vs

<$1/lb for CO2. So, that is a bit more cost effective. CO2 can be

filled at any shop that refills paintball, I like pizza, tanks, dive

shops, beverage stores, etc.



I am in the process of setting up a group buy with Cryofuzion, but I

wanted to see how many people here are interested. They are going to

be selling complete kits which include everything needed to install

it: CO2 Bottle, solenoids, valves, braided stainless steel lines,

interfreezer, 1-cheetah jet, or an option for a Flow-Enducer.

Remember, CO2 bottles can be ordered in any size, 10lb(std.) 15lb, or

20lb. For longer lasting runs.



I am sorry for this being SOOO long, but I like presenting all the

details that I can. If you want any other information, please let me

know, and I'll get it for you. Hopefully you guys will find this as

cool as I did!!!



Priceing right now looks like $450-$500 per kit for a group of 10-15

people.



Enjoy.



Erik
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Old 12-05-2003, 01:00 AM
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Bit too ricey looking/sounding.
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Old 12-05-2003, 12:11 PM
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As I promised, here are the measured flow rates. These are not theoretical, they are right off the flow-bench:



(Remember, this is ONLY for the 3.5" version, there are 4", 6", 8", and 10" freezers.)



At 15 psi. above atmospheric pressure, the maximum flow rates are as follows...



3.5" street interfreezer



5.5" core (2 port) - 861 cfm

7.2" core (3 port) - 844 cfm

9.0" core (4 port) - 826 cfm





So, that will dispell ANY fear that these things are even remotely going to be a restrictive part.



Just for you to get a rough idea of flow comarisions, a 15G turbo flows ~400cfm, so an interfreezer is roughly double the flow rate that our turbo.



Happy now?
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Old 12-05-2003, 05:46 PM
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sounds really really nice..... we'll see how much i can save up before i get this
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Old 12-05-2003, 07:07 PM
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Looks cool, I'll see how it works out for guys on the board. Then maybe instead of water injection get this.. That site is ricey as hell though.
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Old 12-05-2003, 07:33 PM
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ill test it for everyone , and give an honest feedback, if i can get it for way cheaper than the price offered
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Old 12-07-2003, 09:58 AM
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Don't kid yourself w/ these so-called performance items. If these items were so great, you would see it in major forms of motorsport, offered by the OEMs, and used on the space shuttle.



Regarding the DEI Cryo 2 product, you stick that "egg" like object in your intake. That alone will cause some restriction. Assuming this product REALLY does get the air super cold,....you end up freezing the air, causing ice to gather at the "egg" and thus eventually blocking the intake.



Also, regarding the colder temps. Take your standard aftermarket intake pipe (like Injen). I take a relatively piece of metal and bend it into a v-shape. I weld the piece of metal inside the pipe, so that the incoming air gets split by my "v-shaped" piece of metal. Now, take a temperature probe and measure the air before and after the "V-shape" piece of metal. What will happen? Wow...a temperature drop! Why? Simple physics. The incoming air will run along the surface of the piece of metal,...thus cooling it.



Regarding the Cryofuzion, the example from their website shows an NA motor. Okay, fair enough.



The Stage 3 area of the diagram. It runs their "Fuel Interfreezer". If you want to keep your fuel cooler, run a heat exchanger similar to an oil cooler, except you have fuel flowing through it. Also, keep in mind that any professional racing organization (and track officials) probably will not allow you to use this product on the track. If you modify your fuel lines to run into this "Fuel Interfreezer", you might as well just use a fuel cooler.



In the Stage 2 setion, you see the hot gases from the pistons move to the exhaust area. Well, why do you want to place those cooling devices IN the exhaust? This ONLY creates backpressure in your exhaust.



Do you want to know why that device that gets placed in the intake tract is roughly 6 - 12 inches long? Because the more surface area, the more cooling effect you will have. Same concept as brakes.



Don't be fooled into spending your hard earned cash into this junk.



You'll be happier spending it on some gas, a tuneup, and a day at the track.
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Old 12-07-2003, 10:05 AM
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I also forgot.



What happens when you run out of CO2? Are there any quick and convenient refill stations nearby? And how much is it for an expected full tank of CO2 each time? So that means that when you run out, you can't cool the fuel or the intake tract.



And w/ the non-working devices both in the intake and the exhaust (causing a restriction and increased backpressure), you're only making things WORSE when you don't have a supply of CO2.



Take a simple physics and chemistry course and you'll understand. Hell, if you're in high school, ask your teachers.
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Old 12-07-2003, 03:48 PM
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This is going to be fun.



If these items were so great, you would see it in major forms

of motorsport, offered by the OEMs, and used on the space shuttle.


so, we wait until we are TOLD to buy something or when a perticular

product "cool" to buy? Sorry, I think on my own and don't buy into

magazine-hype. The products that are hot in magazines are cold air

intakes and nitrous. Cold air works, but its nothing great, it just

improves the restrictive OEM airbox, and nitrous is just distructive

to engines unless done properly, and properly = expensively, so

properly is usually the not-chosen method.



I am looking for a performance enhancement other than nitrous and to

work in addition to normal bolt-on performance upgrades i.e. chip,

intake, exhuast, fuel, and ignition.



Regarding the DEI Cryo 2 product, you stick that "egg" like

object in your intake. That alone will cause some restriction.
I agree. I don't perticularly like the "egg". It is very large, and

the surface area is relatively small. They are only getting ~30 degree

intake tempertature drops, which is the same as using aquamist and

methanol injection.



you end up freezing the air, causing ice to gather at the "egg"

and thus eventually blocking the intake.


Personally, I don't care about the "egg", I am not supporting Cryo2

products, Cryofuzion I do.



Correct and Incorrect. Yes, you do take the moisture in the ambient

air and freeze it and it will collect as a thin layer on the tubes,

but it reaches a "steady-state" of freezing and thawing. So, the

moisture in the intake air charge is dried as the moisture freezes to

the sidewalls, but then it melts from the air still being above

freezing, but it melts in droplet form... so, its acting like a

miniature version of aquamist injection (just a lot less water). But

there is never anything more than a ~0.025" worth of ice that forms,

so its quite insignificant. Remember the flow rates of their most

RETRICTIVE interfreezer is 826CFM, does your intake path flow anything

near that? I know mine doesn't. I am running a 2.3L Volvo, which at

the MOST will flow 435CFM, so I'm fine.



Simple physics. The incoming air will run along the surface of

the piece of metal,...thus cooling it.
The only way for air

to change temperature is for one of two ways. For uncontrolled

expansion of a pressurized gas, or for heat to be removed by some

mechanical means of heat transfer (heat exchanger).



Ok, IF by using your "magical V" you happen to be compressing

the air (and adding heat) and then after the V allowing it to expand.

The temperature of the gas was raised becuase work was required to

compress the gas and then as it expands the temperature drops, but

you're net change in temperature is >0 b/c it is not a perfect

adiabadic cycle (no heat flows into or out of the system, deltaQ = 0).

So, unless you just created something new that breaks some laws of

physics, maybe YOU should make your "magical V" intake get in the

magazines and sell it, instead of shooting from the hip.



Regarding the Cryofuzion, the example from their website shows

an NA motor. Okay, fair enough.
Some are N/A, some are turbo

engines, and some are superchaged engines



professional racing organization (and track officials) probably

will not allow you to use this product on the track.
No idea,

but I dont run track, i run street. But that is a very good point to

bring up. Although I see no reason why it would be banned from track

use, since you aren't adding anything to the fuel. But that is out of

my realm, ask someone who knows.



why do you want to place those cooling devices IN the

exhaust?
There is no cooling device that is placed in the

exhuast system. There is a standard wing profile (one that does not

develop lift) shaped device that is welded at the end of your exhaust

system to create conditions for better exhaust flow. Once again, back

to my explaination earlier. At the trailing edge of a standard wing

profile at subsonic flow rates is the region of lowest pressure, and

when a gas is discharged at a pressure of ~800 psi (At a room

temperature of 80 F, the vapor pressure is ~ 880 psia, so its actually

a bit higher in the exhuast stream) it will create an enhanced effect

of low pressure. Result? Lowering your backpressure significantly if

not approaching a point of vacuum if you're engine exhaust flow is

small enough. Either way, it is helping to increase turbo spool up in

addition to helping the motor expell its exhuast gases by drawing them

out from the low pressure region created.



Do you want to know why that device that gets placed in the

intake tract is roughly 6 - 12 inches long? Because the more surface

area, the more cooling effect you will have. Same concept as brakes.
Exactly. That is how you can cool the intake temperature.



Don't be fooled into spending your hard earned cash into this

junk.
That is you're opinion, and are quite entitled to have

it. I'm just offering this to the others who dont happen to think as

you do.





What happens when you run out of CO2?
What happens when

you run out of gas?



Are there any quick and convenient refill stations nearby?
I don't know, do you have any sporting goods, beverage

centers, scuba shops, welding shops or industrial gas supply houses? I

know those are all very scarce and hard to find, so you're probably

right, why even consider it.



How about nitrous? Now that is an inconvenient gas to try and refill.

Those tanks last even less ~3-4 shots/tank. Cryo ~15-20 chill and

shots/tank. Also, nitrous is $4/lb to refil vs. ~$15/tank for CO2.



And w/ the non-working devices both in the intake and the

exhaust (causing a restriction and increased backpressure),
Like I stated before, their WORST flowing interfreezer flows 826CFM

(4port 3.5" x 9.0" core) and goes higher from there.





Take a simple physics and chemistry course and you'll

understand.




How about 4 years of Mechanical Engineering?

I'm sorry, I guess I wasnt paying attention in class.
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Old 12-07-2003, 04:18 PM
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The Stage 3 area of the diagram. It runs their "Fuel Interfreezer". If you want to keep your fuel cooler, run a heat exchanger similar to an oil cooler, except you have fuel flowing through it. Also, keep in mind that any professional racing organization (and track officials) probably will not allow you to use this product on the track. If you modify your fuel lines to run into this "Fuel Interfreezer", you might as well just use a fuel cooler.


fuel cooling has been around for a while in the domestic scene......... if you look up edelbrook, they have these setups
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