Ok, sorry guys i've been gone for a WHILE running around the country,

but I am MOST happy to return to the world with some stuff to offer.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



Working on seting up a group buy for a company called Cryofuzion.



1st of all. there are 2 main companies that sell the "cryo" products.

the first is the one which has been brought up called Cryo2 or DEI

SITE THAT SELLS DEI CRYO2 STUFF



AND CRYOFUZION CRYOFUZION HOMEPAGE



I was first introduced to both these systems this summer at the

Carlisle, PA show. I talked to both companies about their products and

here is a summary of each of their products, and my own personal

engineering input. This isn't a sales pitch, this is my opinion and my

summary of whats out there.





DEI Cryo2 and Cryofuzion both have mutliple product

solutions to "chill" either the air and/or fuel portions of our

engine. Both companies "cryo" products use CO2 to remove heat.





DEI Product Summary: The Egg: is a spherical "egg" which is inserted

in the intake ducting near the Throttlebody. it is used for chilling

the intake air charge, they are getting ~35 degree intake temperature

drops.



The I/C Sprayer: Similar to a Nitrous Express Intercooler sprayer, it

is a coil with vent holes that is directly mounted to the front of the

I/C to help in heat removal. Not sure as to what the actual numbers

are for temp drops. Much less the detrament to spraying CO2 into the

engine bay (evacuating most of the much needed oxygen in the engine

bay, including near the airbox). See the actual Dyno proven affects

here: I/C SPRAY-BAR DYNO RESULTS



The summary is when using a "Spray Bar" you loose roughly ~5-7hp (from

waht I can see on the dyno graph) just from the introduction of CO2

into the engine bay.



Spraying Nitrous into over the I/C will allow un-metered nitrous into

your engine, giving you uncontrolled and unpredictable results of

leaning out your engine. Das bad man.



The Fuel Block: Pretty simple method of chilling the fuel. It has 2

sets of holes drilled lengthwise (forming channels) through the entire

aluminum block, one channel is for fuel, the other is for CO2. Pretty

simple, run CO2 thru it, and heat is removed from the fuel. No sure as

to what the acutual numbers are for fuel temp drops, and if it

actually affects HP/Torque in a measureable way.









Cryofuzion



Ok, now these stuff is way cool, and way safer than Nitrous on a

motor, and CHEAPER!!!



What an "Interfreezer" looks like:



http://www.cryofuzion.com/images/race2.JPG



Interfreezer: This is similar in principle to the beloved Aquamist

systems, lower the temperature of the intake charge. They just go at

it in a different manner. Aquamist systems are getting ~30 degrees F

intake temperature drops from injecting IPA mixed with H2O.

Cryofuzion

is using a CO2 2-chamber liquid to air heat exchanger, and getting

between 100 <-> 150 degrees F intake temperature drop.



They offer 3", 4", 6", 8", 10" (internal pipe diameter equivalent of the honeycomb) interfreezers.

So flow is not an issue. (I will be getting actual flow-bench CFM #'s mid week)



Picture of a VERY VERY VERY cold intake:

http://www.cryofuzion.com/images/integra_eng2.jpg





Ok, so point 1, significanly lower intake temperatures. Mind you, the

CO2 is kept COMPLETELY isolated from the intake air, it never mixes

with the air/fuel charge.





What a "Flow Enducer" Looks like:

http://www.cryofuzion.com/images/flow_blue.JPG





Flow Enducer: Now we all are trying to improve 2 basic systems on our

cars:



1) suck in more air 2) get rid of more exhuast quicker



So, they user their aerodynamic-brains to create this guy. [Technical

blurb] Taking a cross-section of a standard wing-profile you will find

that the point of lowest pressure is the trailing edge (pointy end).



They took this knowledge and exploited it. Since we have ~800psi of

CO2 gas pressure running through the interfreezer sucking out heat,

there is still all of the leftover gas that has to be disposed of.

Instead of just venting it to the atmosphere they did something cool

with it, and used it in conjunction with their Flow-Enducer. By

venting the CO2 gas out the trailing edge of the Flow-Enducer it

creates a large low-pressure area, essentially a vacuum. It is welded

in your exhuast pipe, towards the end about 12-18' from the exhuast

tip.





So, the nuts and bolts of it. It sucks your exhuast gas out.



Cool huh? How about that for exhuast flow!!!! When its on, its taking

backpessure and making it non-existant.



I thought so. When I saw it at carlisle this summer it totally

captivated me and I was quite impressed.



Bottom Line: What does it get me? Well, all their numbers are from

Dyno-proven results, not estimates. With naturally aspirated motors

they are gettin ~7%-9% horsepower and torque gains. On a forced

induction motor they are achieving ~12%-20% horsepower and torque

gains. Note these are at the wheel numbers, not crank power gains.



So on a motor that is running 200hp that is a gain of 30hp to 230hp

(assuming a 15% gain). And the other really cool thing is, the warmer and

higher the humidity is, the better this system works.





This is a "shot-basis" system like Nitrous, except that you can run it

through any throttle range and have it triggered by throttle position

or my thumb switch. But an average shot to "freeze" your intake cooler

is T<10 seconds, and then however long you have it on for your "run".

With an average shot length of 10 seconds, and an expected tank usage

life of ~2mins, that is around 12 runs. Now remember, that is with a

10lb bottle, and they sell 15lb, and 20lb (which is what I will be

getting).



The other advantage of CO2 over Nitrous is cost, $4.25/lb by me, vs

<$1/lb for CO2. So, that is a bit more cost effective. CO2 can be

filled at any shop that refills paintball, I like pizza, tanks, dive

shops, beverage stores, etc.



I am in the process of setting up a group buy with Cryofuzion, but I

wanted to see how many people here are interested. They are going to

be selling complete kits which include everything needed to install

it: CO2 Bottle, solenoids, valves, braided stainless steel lines,

interfreezer, 1-cheetah jet, or an option for a Flow-Enducer.

Remember, CO2 bottles can be ordered in any size, 10lb(std.) 15lb, or

20lb. For longer lasting runs.



I am sorry for this being SOOO long, but I like presenting all the

details that I can. If you want any other information, please let me

know, and I'll get it for you. Hopefully you guys will find this as

cool as I did!!!



Priceing right now looks like $450-$500 per kit for a group of 10-15

people.



Enjoy.



Erik https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif

Bit too ricey looking/sounding.

As I promised, here are the measured flow rates. These are not theoretical, they are right off the flow-bench:



(Remember, this is ONLY for the 3.5" version, there are 4", 6", 8", and 10" freezers.)



At 15 psi. above atmospheric pressure, the maximum flow rates are as follows...



3.5" street interfreezer



5.5" core (2 port) - 861 cfm

7.2" core (3 port) - 844 cfm

9.0" core (4 port) - 826 cfm





So, that will dispell ANY fear that these things are even remotely going to be a restrictive part.



Just for you to get a rough idea of flow comarisions, a 15G turbo flows ~400cfm, so an interfreezer is roughly double the flow rate that our turbo.



Happy now?

sounds really really nice..... we'll see how much i can save up before i get this https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

Looks cool, I'll see how it works out for guys on the board. Then maybe instead of water injection get this.. That site is ricey as hell though.

ill test it for everyone , and give an honest feedback, if i can get it for way cheaper than the price offered

Don't kid yourself w/ these so-called performance items. If these items were so great, you would see it in major forms of motorsport, offered by the OEMs, and used on the space shuttle.



Regarding the DEI Cryo 2 product, you stick that "egg" like object in your intake. That alone will cause some restriction. Assuming this product REALLY does get the air super cold,....you end up freezing the air, causing ice to gather at the "egg" and thus eventually blocking the intake.



Also, regarding the colder temps. Take your standard aftermarket intake pipe (like Injen). I take a relatively piece of metal and bend it into a v-shape. I weld the piece of metal inside the pipe, so that the incoming air gets split by my "v-shaped" piece of metal. Now, take a temperature probe and measure the air before and after the "V-shape" piece of metal. What will happen? Wow...a temperature drop! Why? Simple physics. The incoming air will run along the surface of the piece of metal,...thus cooling it.



Regarding the Cryofuzion, the example from their website shows an NA motor. Okay, fair enough.



The Stage 3 area of the diagram. It runs their "Fuel Interfreezer". If you want to keep your fuel cooler, run a heat exchanger similar to an oil cooler, except you have fuel flowing through it. Also, keep in mind that any professional racing organization (and track officials) probably will not allow you to use this product on the track. If you modify your fuel lines to run into this "Fuel Interfreezer", you might as well just use a fuel cooler.



In the Stage 2 setion, you see the hot gases from the pistons move to the exhaust area. Well, why do you want to place those cooling devices IN the exhaust? This ONLY creates backpressure in your exhaust.



Do you want to know why that device that gets placed in the intake tract is roughly 6 - 12 inches long? Because the more surface area, the more cooling effect you will have. Same concept as brakes.



Don't be fooled into spending your hard earned cash into this junk.



You'll be happier spending it on some gas, a tuneup, and a day at the track.

I also forgot.



What happens when you run out of CO2? Are there any quick and convenient refill stations nearby? And how much is it for an expected full tank of CO2 each time? So that means that when you run out, you can't cool the fuel or the intake tract.



And w/ the non-working devices both in the intake and the exhaust (causing a restriction and increased backpressure), you're only making things WORSE when you don't have a supply of CO2.



Take a simple physics and chemistry course and you'll understand. Hell, if you're in high school, ask your teachers.

This is going to be fun. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/BURNOUT.gif





so, we wait until we are TOLD to buy something or when a perticular

product "cool" to buy? Sorry, I think on my own and don't buy into

magazine-hype. The products that are hot in magazines are cold air

intakes and nitrous. Cold air works, but its nothing great, it just

improves the restrictive OEM airbox, and nitrous is just distructive

to engines unless done properly, and properly = expensively, so

properly is usually the not-chosen method.



I am looking for a performance enhancement other than nitrous and to

work in addition to normal bolt-on performance upgrades i.e. chip,

intake, exhuast, fuel, and ignition.



I agree. I don't perticularly like the "egg". It is very large, and

the surface area is relatively small. They are only getting ~30 degree

intake tempertature drops, which is the same as using aquamist and

methanol injection.





Personally, I don't care about the "egg", I am not supporting Cryo2

products, Cryofuzion I do.



Correct and Incorrect. Yes, you do take the moisture in the ambient

air and freeze it and it will collect as a thin layer on the tubes,

but it reaches a "steady-state" of freezing and thawing. So, the

moisture in the intake air charge is dried as the moisture freezes to

the sidewalls, but then it melts from the air still being above

freezing, but it melts in droplet form... so, its acting like a

miniature version of aquamist injection (just a lot less water). But

there is never anything more than a ~0.025" worth of ice that forms,

so its quite insignificant. Remember the flow rates of their most

RETRICTIVE interfreezer is 826CFM, does your intake path flow anything

near that? I know mine doesn't. I am running a 2.3L Volvo, which at

the MOST will flow 435CFM, so I'm fine.



The only way for air

to change temperature is for one of two ways. For uncontrolled

expansion of a pressurized gas, or for heat to be removed by some

mechanical means of heat transfer (heat exchanger).



Ok, IF by using your "magical V" you happen to be compressing

the air (and adding heat) and then after the V allowing it to expand.

The temperature of the gas was raised becuase work was required to

compress the gas and then as it expands the temperature drops, but

you're net change in temperature is >0 b/c it is not a perfect

adiabadic cycle (no heat flows into or out of the system, deltaQ = 0).

So, unless you just created something new that breaks some laws of

physics, maybe YOU should make your "magical V" intake get in the

magazines and sell it, instead of shooting from the hip. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/violin.gif



Some are N/A, some are turbo

engines, and some are superchaged engines



No idea,

but I dont run track, i run street. But that is a very good point to

bring up. Although I see no reason why it would be banned from track

use, since you aren't adding anything to the fuel. But that is out of

my realm, ask someone who knows.



There is no cooling device that is placed in the

exhuast system. There is a standard wing profile (one that does not

develop lift) shaped device that is welded at the end of your exhaust

system to create conditions for better exhaust flow. Once again, back

to my explaination earlier. At the trailing edge of a standard wing

profile at subsonic flow rates is the region of lowest pressure, and

when a gas is discharged at a pressure of ~800 psi (At a room

temperature of 80 F, the vapor pressure is ~ 880 psia, so its actually

a bit higher in the exhuast stream) it will create an enhanced effect

of low pressure. Result? Lowering your backpressure significantly if

not approaching a point of vacuum if you're engine exhaust flow is

small enough. Either way, it is helping to increase turbo spool up in

addition to helping the motor expell its exhuast gases by drawing them

out from the low pressure region created.



Exactly. That is how you can cool the intake temperature.



That is you're opinion, and are quite entitled to have

it. I'm just offering this to the others who dont happen to think as

you do.





What happens when

you run out of gas?



I don't know, do you have any sporting goods, beverage

centers, scuba shops, welding shops or industrial gas supply houses? I

know those are all very scarce and hard to find, so you're probably

right, why even consider it.



How about nitrous? Now that is an inconvenient gas to try and refill.

Those tanks last even less ~3-4 shots/tank. Cryo ~15-20 chill and

shots/tank. Also, nitrous is $4/lb to refil vs. ~$15/tank for CO2.



Like I stated before, their WORST flowing interfreezer flows 826CFM

(4port 3.5" x 9.0" core) and goes higher from there.





https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif



How about 4 years of Mechanical Engineering?

I'm sorry, I guess I wasnt paying attention in class. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683664.gif

fuel cooling has been around for a while in the domestic scene......... if you look up edelbrook, they have these setups

Seems like a cool idea.

Jaguar were doing it in the 80's on the XJ6/12 series 3. The fuel line goes through a cooler unit in the air con line. Could have been just for Australia, but they were doin it!

Quick question -



You keep saying that the 3.5" core flows 826 CFM, but it was tested with a pressure drop of 15 psi.



Presonally I don't want to see a 15 psi pressure drop between my turbo and my engine. How about testing it with a more reasonable pressure drop of 1-2 psi? This will give a much more useful airflow measurement.

It was measuring the flow at a boost condition of 15psi... the test is intended to show the conditions of high boost in an intake and what flow rates will be present at that level of boost.

so what does this "interfreezer" flow at atmospheric pressure?

Im just curious on tunning:

Ok so you put it on, and you tune it to VERY COLD intake temps a get maybe 5 to whatever out of it or whatever, thats great.



So your off on a drive and you run out of CO2, OOPS! you car just lost 50hp(hot day summer time), and you just had a tidal wave of frozen slush go done in your itercooler, intake etc. So you would have to re-tune it or drive it around like POOP till you get it refilled.



Curious now on driving:

So really if your not using your car for only race, then I dont get it. Condensation? Thats a lot of water, regardless some will melt correct? If it doesnt then you will have a BIG Problem like DOM mentioned. I know about water injection, but its spray mist, its not a river of cold water.



SEEMS GREAT FOR RACE ONLY PURPOSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would give you a nice add to the drags.



SOME MENTION was brought up on fuel coolers. Well we have oil coolers, intercoolers, radiators etc... All these require ONE NATURE element, that you dont need to refill, and its AIR.



I dont knock water injection, or NOS or whatever, since they are short burst, not something that can run out and do damage.



So how is this prevented?



This is one of those cases I hate being a shop owner, I just want some honest info, no knocking, just info, since some are ready to run out and buy with no research, we all have seen this on a lot of cars, packing it with ICE etc... ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE ENGINE.



I like the IDEA of running a few lines threw the intercooler like A/C lines, but not frozen, just chilly! hehe

Damn just I just looked at the webpage hehe, I was a little slow out of the gate.



I saw they did that intercooler idea I was thinking of kind of. I think that has potential with some work, but you couldnt just ask people to MOD their current one, you would have to sell them.



ALSO still the CO2 can run out. Then what?

which one of the products was similar to your idea jt?

This one



http://www.cryofuzion.com/images/paper.gif



But it looks as its been out a while, I just think a better design, and not quite as cold, would be a nice addtion. Not too butt/steal the thread in or anything...

turbobrik---COME BACK! Seriously man, I want to hear more. Actually more info on that intercooler one would be great, or PM me some info. Im too slow to read threw all the shite.

Hey JT. I'm back... sorry bout that....



here's some answers to your questions...



How is that any different than nitrous spraying cars? Except for their smallest bottle lasts for 2min 20sec of continuous flow, so if an average spray lasts ~10 seconds thats ~14 shots. And Nitrous is ~3 per bottle, and at the average cost of nitrous ~$4/lb(x20lb bottle = $80) and CO2 is ~$15 (15lb bottle refill). Its just slightly more cost effective. And dont even get me started on the negatives of running nitrous the way that 95% of people run it. But thats for another lesson...



No, the ice reaches a steady state accumulation/melting with a thickness ~0.050". It creates a small amounts of water dropplets that do go into your intake, but it reduces carbon deposits, cools intake manifold, etc (normal water injection benefits, just on a smaller scale)



Um, no, when it is not running, it drives just like it normally would, no loss of performance when its passive.





The amount of water that is "ingested" by the engine from the condensation is peanuts compared to water injection





True, but the level of cooling you get is no where near that of this product, and a high-efficiency Intercooler is QUITE expensive, as we all know.



There is no damage done when this runs out. You just don't have the performance gains.



Let me know whatever questions I can answer, I'd be happy to. Just FYI I do not work for, get paid, or get any kickback from promoting this product. I just happen to be an engineer who beleives in it. And have a pretty good "in" with the pres and VP of the company. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/cool.png



email me if you like or get me on IM or PM me. I'd be happy to answer any questions truthfully. I dont like magazine hype either.

I hope these answered your questions.

when that thing runs out the car will run excessively rich.... since you would be tuning for cold air.



if you tune for normal air, and use that kit... hten you might run excessively lean... pop goes the wankel

Ok thanks for answering my questions.



Im lost on 1 thing though. You compared it to Nitrous



Nitrous, water etc.. injection are bursts.



Isnt this thing running all the time? That was my understanding. If not, how long does it take to start producing and cold air effect after its turned on? Then what happens when you turn it off or turn off the car to that 0.050 amount of ice/water? That pipe in front of the intake look like what about 10-14 inches? Thats quite a bit of water...



Im totally curious... Sounds good, but im stuck on this ice and water thing..

Thats what Im saying...



Maybe this doesnt run all the time?



My engine runs little poop between the diff in Summer and winter no tunning done, I couldnt imagine VERY VERY low temps and then blamo 120F ouch! My FD would have a heartattack

i wonder if it will work well with my ecu since i have a pettit unlimitted ecu.... i dont really tune it and its overly rich.

No, it does not run all the time.



You freeze the pipe before a race to keep things cool. I can see this as a popular drag racing mod.



As far as the air temps, you have intake temp correction values that will adjust the amount of fuel it will inject compensating for the temp. of the air. As long as you have ENOUGH fuel, you should be OK. How much more fuel is needed, i do not know.

Kind of like a mini 'cold box' that big drag racers use.

No, it does NOT run all the time, it is a "shot" basis, just like nitrous and water injection.





I'm sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning wankel tuning. I was unaware of their temperature sensitvity. I sounds like you tune the engine for a specific ambient temperature and lock it in. With our piston motors its not a concern (at least its not a large enough one that you need to worry about it). But according to rfreeman27,

if you have the proper temperature fuel correction maps then it should work. But this is beyond my knowledge...



But there is not a lot of water/ice that melts. I dont get why you think its a huge amount. Water injection is considerably larger in volume of injection, and even when it does melt, its slow, not like somebody dumping a bucket of water and ice.

Actually the ice build up is a lot thinner than 0.050, but its hard to measure the exact thickness of ice, becuase its more of a "frostlike" buildup. And the depth when you look at frost on the microscopic level varies on ~200%.



It takes ~10 seconds for a complete "chill" but the the tubes are 0.030" thick copper, so the heat transfer begins almost immediately.





Turbobrik

cool thanks...



Sounds good for drag as mentioned.

agreed https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif





No problem. Any other questions?

Well, Rotarys are very sensitive to AIT changes, especally if its really hot. (heatsoaked)



I wouldnt take my word for it (regarding if it is safe to use) but that is the way i see it. As long as you have enough fuel to support it, it should be ok. I would like to hear from a more knowledgable person first though.

Concerning rotaries..... me too

well the way i see this...... is its 20 degrees outside this winter, and im running 12psi (however i dont have a way to monitor my fuel system's work load). so lets say its a hot summer day, and i use this freezer thing.... should bring me to about the same temps. plus cold air is less likely to detonate, so i guess you would be safer having a higher a/f than having a high a/f with warmer AIT.



(i think thats what todd tried to explain to me)



well reguardless, i dont have money and room to put this thing in my engine bay since i mounted my hmic.